Forums/Pioneer Gear/CDJ-850

[SOLVED] how it should have been done.

Nick Johnson
posted this on September 09, 2012 21:26

Pioneer why did everything need to be so complex? the perfect cdj 850 would have had the waveform reading capability of the 1000 mk3s, and on top of that been usb compatible.(preferably also rekordbox compatible but even that isn't necessary)  everything else is pointless. If I wanted a midi controller I would have bought one, not a cdj, what is the point of a loop function that doesn't set perfect loops!!, I dont even use it because If I set it by hand at least it has a chance to be close to perfect. The worst part is that the 2000s have a perfect 4 bar loop function come on. pioneer had such a great foundation with the 1000 mk3s, If u have something that works great why not improve upon that rather than scrap it and go for flashy functions that are in rendered pointless because they weren't designed properly. I know this is a cdj 850 forum but while im at it, why the hell does rekordbox not have a cd burning function, that might be the dumbest thing ever. a company that makes cdjs designes a software that cant make cds. absolutely brilliant. Strong suggestion, cdj 1000 mk4s with nothing changed from the 3s besides usb capability. with the right price that would be the most popular product you guys have ever made.

 

Comments

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quistuhpha

Amen. They've spent no time supporting this product after releasing it - but manage to continually come out with new controllers left and right...oh and release new colors. 

September 10, 2012 16:40
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Gavin
Pioneer DJ

@Nick > Do you own CDJ850s? Its not explicitly clear in your post.

Do you use rekordbox with the players? Do you have Quantize enabled?

Rekordbox was brought to the market to help DJs move away from using CDs. Apart from creating playlists, you can do little else with rekordbox for CDs so whats the point? 

September 12, 2012 23:12
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Hans van Egteren

@Gavin, when using Quantize in rekordbox to setup loops, the loops are sometimes off when you load them in the CDJ 850.

It would be very cool from Pioneer if they will support quantize on the cdj 850 in a future firmware update.

September 13, 2012 00:09
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Brett Priest

..... and the 'sort' feature that is availiable after choosing a catagory like on other players. Also looping that you can actually use as stated before

September 13, 2012 00:43
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Hans van Egteren

Yeah the sort feature (pressing the menu button when you are in a playlist) would be very handy.

September 13, 2012 00:49
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Nick Johnson

I do own 850s in fact, and I do use portable hard drives and rekordbox, and no where in there did I was it wasn't a great concept. Im just saying it was made completely wrong and not up to pioneers previous standers.

September 13, 2012 04:52
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Nick Johnson

I also use CDs though depending on the genre im spinning, and as for pre quantizing loops in rekordbox I don't pre plan my set so there isn't a whole lot of use for pre setting loops

September 13, 2012 04:58
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Gavin
Pioneer DJ

@Hans > Are you on 2.0.1 on rekordbox and have the players on the latest firmware? In my experience, they've been pretty tight. But I will pass along your feedback that it could be tighter.

@Nick > Sorry Nick, I'm not trying to be hostile, but I've read your post three times now and I still don't know what, exactly, you are complaining about.

September 14, 2012 09:26
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Nick Johnson

you guys messed everything up on the 850s. everything is badly designed I didn't spend 800 dollars to have shit that doesn't work correctly. this unit was 100% designed wrong and thats the point of this post. and as for rekordbox, it has more bugs than a rainforest, I have had so many things go wrong, from songs that cant upload, to rekordbox loosing files forcing me to trace them back to their origin, rekordbox even corrupted my hard drive forcing me to re-upload everything. and the fact that there is no bridge to mixed in key, which is one of the most used dj programs is just plain bad business on both pioneer and mixed in keys part. Furthermore, I noticed on this new version the key can be read, but why would you do it in terms of the circle of 5ths rather than the camelot wheel which is what most djs use. Its poor decisions and a lack of attention to detail like this that is gona have a lot more djs moving to different companies because pioneer is too comfortable making shit products because their "industry standard" .

September 15, 2012 15:46
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quistuhpha

Loop feature constantly fails to produce perfect loops

Waveform displays are more than often incorrect 

Tempo/pitch slider fails to remain at set value, fluctuates

on and on and on

It's been more than a year or so and there has been no support updates

September 15, 2012 18:23
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Davmix

The same, cant accept spent 1700 euros for unstable auto beat loop !!!! First and last buy Pioneer cdj !

September 16, 2012 20:53
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Hans van Egteren

@Gavin, yeah I'm on 2.0.1 since it came out, but to be honest I still have to test the loops...

Unfortuntaly I'm not home for 2 weeks...

September 17, 2012 12:09
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JPulling

What quistuhpha said!

September 27, 2012 05:20
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bob jones

@Gavin, I'm afraid most of the complains you read here are legit.  With all the support and features for the 900s and 2000s, the 850 series certainly seems to be an afterthought.  I am glad someone finally made a thread about it.  

-Loop functions are not accurate. Even with the quantize feature enabled in Rekordbox, I cannot achieve an accurate loop like I can with the 900s or 2000s.  I have to manually adjust it each and everytime.  It's to the point now where I don't even bother looping, the risk of the beats going off sync is too great.  I have the newest updated versions on both firmware and rekordbox software, and still the issue exists.  Why has this not been corrected?  I've seen youtube videos from over a year ago showing the issue.

-The wavebar form is often wrong.  Visual breakdowns do sync up with the sound.  Sometimes, I will just get a solid rectangle that appears instead of a waveform.  Usually it is right, but I would say about 15-20% of the tracks I scan are not accurate.  I would hope that a firmware update would fix this in the future.  

-The tempo often does fluctuate.  Sometimes, the bpm display is not accurate at all.  I might have one track that I know is exactly 128.0 bpm, and the other cdj should be the same, Yet, sometimes I will still have to adjust one side to make them match.  I have learned how to deal with it during my live sets, but it should still not be an issue.  I used to think it was that way with some of the tracks I ripped from live sets, but I now see it happening to full version tracks I have bought.  This is my #1 issue.  My buddy has pair of 900s and I have tried it with the exact same 2 tracks on his players, and there are no issues.  IMO this needs to be fixed asap.

All in all, I think the 850s are incredibly useful and great players to use.  But its unfortunate that instead of Pioneer correcting the issues and supporting the players more, the main focus is on the 900s and 2000s and I have to ''adapt'' to the glitches on the 850s in order to achieve the perfect live set.  

October 07, 2012 07:49
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bob jones

"The wavebar form is often wrong.  Visual breakdowns do not sync up with the sound" is what I meat to say.  Thanks.

October 07, 2012 07:51
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Brett Priest

I may be wrong, but people keep metioning the grids in rekordbox and having quantise on. But this makes no diference as the CDJ850's do not read the grids, and therefore do not support the quantise feature (even if it does read the grids it definitely doesn't support the quantise feature).

As far as I'm aware it should read what the bpm shows in display, then sets a precise loop to the exact amount of time 8 beats (or which ever preset loop you pick) is to that specific bpm.

Unfortunately it doesn't, and therefore you can't even use the loop feature!

October 08, 2012 01:31
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DJ KIKI

Pioneer reputation is going down because of new series of CD players...
Pioneer is very lucky because other competitors makes confusing & stupid products (CD players only), but I don't know how long Pioneer gonna be on top if continues this way...
And weirdest thing of all is that cheapest CD players in range CDJ-350 have almost no bugs, and they work perfectly, they only bug sometimes with wrong BPM, but everything else... PERFECT !!!
CDJ-850 on the other hand have some bugs with lights on loop that continues to flash after exiting loop, we reported this error half year ago, nothing happened. Wrong waveforms - same story. And stability is not like on CDJ-350, it bugs sometimes with USB flash.
CDJ-900 is story for itself, I don't know a DJ who didn't complained on CDJ-900, like somebody said "it has more bugs than rainforest"
 
And I can't believe engineers knows about this errors, and act like they don't care, OK I know that some errors are not easy to fix, but FFS there are some really basic error that can be fixed. 

October 09, 2012 12:58
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quistuhpha

Close to 2 years or so after Pioneer releases the CDJ 850:

It comes out with a new color, CDJ 850-k black!

It comes out with another new color, CDJ 850-w white!

It comes out with DJM 850!

It comes out with DJM 250 and other mixers!

It comes out with DDJ-T1, DDJ-S1, DDJ-Ergo...

And now, XDJ-Aero, DDJ-WeGo, and DDJ-SX!

 

 

But fails to correct KNOWN problematic FEATURES and show an ounce of support on a product they released about 2 years ago

QUIT coming out with new products left and right if you can't address issues customer's are OBVIOUSLY voicing on YOUR website
Bottom line...Pioneer releases new colors of the 850 a year later but fail to release a firmware update to correct a faulty product

 

Just imagine the sure-fire faults of all their other products and lack of support all those new products will receive

 

 

October 09, 2012 19:06
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Gavin
Pioneer DJ

@Nick > What is badly designed? Please help me understand better what you are trying to get fixed. Rekordbox analyses the keys of tracks using Standard Notation. The Camelot System is licensed by Mixed In Key.

@Bob Jones > Thanks for your constructive feedback - I've forwarded this to our engineers.

@Quistuhpha > You are mistaken - the same engineers that work on the CDJ-850 for example, wouldn't also be working on the XDJ-Aero so the amount of new products is irrelevant.

Pioneer are aware of your sentiments - I have contacted the relevant people to let them know.

October 11, 2012 05:42
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bob jones

Thanks Gavin, appreciate the response!

October 12, 2012 12:33
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quistuhpha

@Gavin Hahahaha wow funny, THEN what are those CDJ-850 SPECIFIC engineers doing nowadays? Apparently releasing new color finishes and NOT support updates?

October 12, 2012 17:13
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Brandon Orr

It's honestly true what everyone has said above.  I remember when I purchased my 850s two years ago they were my first CDJs ever, and I was so excited, because I was expecting them to be treated like how the 800MK2s were treatly in relation to the 1000MK3s.  Unfortunately, a lot of the issues that were around two years ago still persist and I can't help but feel like a sucker.  I thought paying a premium price, would provide a premium level of service and support, but apparently you don't always get what you paid for!  Please understand that the 850 is the only current model of CDJs which is a full standard jog wheele size and affordable to new DJs.  While I understand that you have to provide top notch support for your flagship product the CDJ 2000 and 900 because they cost the same amount as my university tuition, but there really should be some ongoing updates and communication between not just Gavin and Pulse, but maybe some of the people working on the product.  I must admit, I truly do believe you pass the comments on to the engineers, but it does feel as if they may be just words hitting a blank wall.  Not only that, but making numerous variations of the same faulty player in different colours just insults all of us who have been complaining on the core issues like the auto-loop features and rekordbox control.

 

ALL THAT, and, I know this next one isn't enitrely Pioneer's fault, but the fact that there is no HID support for the CDJ 850 in traktor after two years, when the Player was clearly advertised as being traktor ready and HID capable really misled me.  Once again I really know it's not really entirely Pioneer's fault, but I must admit I do feel misled about the future potential of my CDJs as "being able to be used in HID with popular DJ software" which isn't entirely true, because you can't unless the support is provided by the software company.  Don't worry I've blasted Native Instruments on this as well ;).

October 16, 2012 04:31
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Brandon Orr

jsut to add to my comment above.  When I say paying a premium price, I meant shelling out an extra $400 dollars for CDJ 850s compared to a prominent CD deck from Denon which has a plethora of features and works beautifully on all media types and software.  I thought that based on comments and experience from other people that Pioneer really was a name to stand by, and so this affected my purchase decision.  Looking back on it now, though, I really do feel like I may have made the wrong decision.  Although if these, what seem simple, issues were resolved along with a harder push from Pioneer for software integration, there could still be a saving grace for Pioneer, in my books at least.

October 16, 2012 04:34
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Nick Johnson

I think you mean $800^^^

October 16, 2012 07:31
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Brandon Orr

^no I literally mean it would have cost $200 per deck extra only

October 16, 2012 07:47
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Brandon Orr

^meaning I could've had a better product for just a bit more money, although at the time I thought the 850s were going to be good, that is ofcourse, before I found myself dealing with all these issues.

October 16, 2012 07:48
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Nick Johnson

that makes sense my bad

October 16, 2012 08:14
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Taff

Firmware has come out again for the 2000 and 900, any chance there will be an update for the 850 soon to fix some of the bugs listed above?

October 16, 2012 09:11
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DJ KIKI

Owners of CDJ-850, if you think that CDJ-900 is more stable, you are wrong, CDJ-850 may have some bugs, but CDJ-900 have other bugs :D
So don't feel bad for buying CDJ-850, it has some bugs, but on the other hand it is a fantastic piece of kit, very precise, beautiful, and easy-to-use :-)
We just hope new firmware will be released soon :-) 

October 16, 2012 09:26
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Taff

Well said KIKI, I for one think the 850s are a great bit of kit.

October 16, 2012 10:54
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Brandon Orr

I think we all agree it's a great bit of kit.  But please keep in mind that Pioneer CDJs are of a higher quality, and sold at a premium.  As such they should be held to such standards.  There's really only a few issues (which shouldn't be happening anyway) that are holding this player back from being amazing.  It's not a matter of if these issues can be fixed, but rather a matter of when the engineers at Pioneer will get around to fixing them.

October 16, 2012 14:51
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Davmix

""Firmware has come out again for the 2000 and 900, any chance there will be an update for the 850 soon to fix some of the bugs listed above?"

Well say, when 850 will be update to correct fake autoloop ? 

October 16, 2012 22:06
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DJ KIKI

cdj-850 have correct autolooops (in it's class).

cdj-850 does not support quantized loops.

it says in the manual, and in information video about 350/850/900/2000.

Our mission here is to force engineers to correct present bugs, not to implement new features which never meant to be implemented.

keep it real man...

October 16, 2012 23:10
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Brett Priest

I agree the cdj-850's do not support quantized loops, and as you say that would be a new feature.

But thats not the problem, its the fact the auto loops aren't good enough, I.E. if the tempo says 126bpm, and I press an 8 beat auto loop, the length of the loop should be exactly the time of 8 beats @ 126bpm, but its not, you can hear the end of the loop isn't seamless or the timings slightly off, one or the other, and therefore it drifts. Obviously its up to the user to press it at the right time, on beat, as there's no quantize.

And I'm not trying to be patronizing or anything, i know you know how a loops works, I'm just trying to explain the problem as clear as possible.

Still, I love my cdj-850's though! I'm not a hater I'd just like to see this fixed =]

October 17, 2012 00:24
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Davmix

is that i want to say. When i spent 900 euros for CDJ 850  with auto beatloop i can hope a PERFECT loop as a poor and  sheap 200 euros CDJ value.

But no, i'll do buy 900 or 2000 to obtain same value as cheap CDJ player. Incredible !!!!

First and last Pioneer bought !! 

October 17, 2012 00:43
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JPulling

Brett - I thought the auto loop didnt matter when you hit it? I'm pretty sure if I hit it off beat it will still loop on (for instance) 8 beats until i hit exit and it will pretty much be ok (apart from the auto being quite a way out). Might be wrong ??

I understood the quantize feature to basically use a more complicated algorithm and software to predict the loop more precisely?

 

What worries me is firstly these were sold with the first effort of auto looping (which should never have been sanctioned by management), then they 'improved' the auto loop in the next firmware upgrade. Which makes me think they have improved it as much as it possibly can be.

If this is the case then they shouldnt be sold with this feature because it doesnt work. Similarly with the other features that dont work. Either that or the price should reflect a player without those features.

October 17, 2012 03:11
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Brett Priest

Yeah thats right, I was just trying to separate the problem from the quantize feature, but yes the loop should still work fine, I just think its better to get a whole beat in, rather than starting on the second half of a beat and at the end of the loop the first half of a beat is caught and it seamlessly makes a beat as it loops, and you can't tell in most cases... in theory

The quantize would start the loop on the grid, which you would have adjusted exactly to the beginning of the beat in RB (I believe)

And yeah, surely it reads the current bpm and which auto loop length you've pressed, then the loop should be a certain time down to the millisecond?
e.g. 128bpm for 4 beats, 128 divided by 60 = 2.133 then times by 4 = 8.533 and thats how many seconds the loop would be
I've only gone to 3 decimal places, but you get what I mean, maybe it's more difficult than that...? I'm not a software enginner haha

October 17, 2012 04:37
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Brett Priest

sorry I f*cked that maths right up haha

October 17, 2012 04:38
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Brett Priest

60 divided by 128 = 0.46875 then times by 4 = 1.875 seconds
Is this right? I've confused myself haha. Fail :P

October 17, 2012 04:41
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Nick Johnson

Well the cdj 850 was never ment to have quantize like was said above and they can't fix the auto loop because the player cant get anymore exact then it is already with the loop. So its an un-solvable problem. The title of this thread is also "how it should have been done" so My question is why even have an autoloop function if it doesn't work? I would prefer 3 cue points like the mk3 instead. or even get rid of the auto loop and release it for a cheaper price. 

October 18, 2012 08:00
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Davmix

the question is what is the interest to release a CDJ with an autobeat loop  that is not accurate? What might it serve?
I would also have preferred a three hotcues instead of this function ultimately USELESS.

October 18, 2012 08:10
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Brett Priest

I agree with Nick and Davmix. Just wondering if anyone from Pioneer could confirm if Nick's right that the player can't get the loop anymore accurate, and therefore the problem is 'unsolvable'? Or maybe it's being addressed...

October 19, 2012 00:40
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JPulling

Brett - not sure of the calculations, but I agree you may have failed in your attempt haha

I think the autoloop is more desireable than hot cues, it was this feature that really enticed me (Had my first go on a 2000 & 900 at the weekend and I think I actually prefer the 900 just for the autoloop!), but like we've all said if it is only as good now as it will ever be then it shouldn't have even been put into it!

An answer from Pioneer would be nice - however as I suspect it will be a negative answer and a negative answer will be admitting they were wrong!

October 19, 2012 00:50
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Brandon Orr

I'm having a hard time understanding what the difference between an accurate auto-loop that works like how Brett explained, and Quantized looping. 

From my understanding over the years was that Quantize allows you to jump between beats or jump between cue points, and ALWAYS stay on time. Again, provided that your gridding is fine. This means you can pretty much remix tracks on the go, live- dissecting the parts of the tracks and jumping around between them and knowing you will never fuck up the timing of the tracks

Whereas snapping allows for perfect loops that snap or attach to pre determined beatmarkers based on BPM.

Having said that I really don't know how it could be that difficult to implement snap looping that is based off of the rekorbox beatgrids and BPM?  The player can obviously read that info already, how can it be that difficult to have the player reference?

October 19, 2012 01:38
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Brett Priest

I know haha but in my defense I only got the bpm and the time the wrong way round, spotted and corrected it straight away :P i think lol

I agree, it's such a handy feature! And I'm fine with using the normal cue points you can use, and just using the arrows to select which one I want

Yeah, lets wait and see

October 19, 2012 01:39
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Davmix

I expected the minimum buying two CDJ for 1900 euros is to beatmatch two tracks perfectly with loop without pich bend every 2 seconds! Even CDJ KoolSound at 200 euros doing better. 

I do not understand why the owners of this CDJ are not angrier. 

October 19, 2012 02:47
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DJ KIKI

@Davmix

We know to mix, that's why we are not angry.

Loop was never perfect on any CDJ, so we learned how to deal with it, and what we have to do to make it precise. Depending of BPM and loop duration, we change tempo, and get almost-perfect loop that is good enough, so there is no need for pitch-bending.

Mixing is a skill, and it should be done by DJ, not by machine... CDJ-850 is not Virtual DJ, there is no magic sync button and perfect loops...

And I agree that Pioneer is way overpriced (CDJ-850 is 50% more expensive than CDJ-800mk2), but also there is no other competitor that is good enough to even consider buy their product.

October 19, 2012 04:16
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Davmix

its not the problem for me, i mix since 1988 and ive never used CDJ autoloop in my set but when Pioneer advertising on its basis autobeatloop a perfect mix I'm sorry this is false advertising ! 

October 19, 2012 05:30
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quistuhpha

Lets not reference each other's mixing. This is about the product. It is a support forum for the product. The point here is simple. The autobeat loop, which is a performance and physical feature, is utterly pointless. You are better off looping with a lower-end model and/or even an older model (how does that happen? nothing technological about that). The computer of the CDJ-850 more often than not also malfuctions and displays incorrect waveforms (a key difference between the CDJ-850 and CDJ-350).

Take those things into consideration and the standout features that seperate the CDJ-850 from the CDJ-350 are absent. The price here does not accurately reflect the features (or absence of), the product, and hopelessly, the support offered. 

October 19, 2012 07:15
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Brandon Orr

Hear Hear.  Well said quistuhpha.

October 19, 2012 07:17
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quistuhpha

By the way, I would like to bump my question I am waiting for @Gavin to answer and for other CDJ-850 owners to think about.@Gavin implied that the engineering team for the CDJ-850 isn't the same engineering team to work on new products such as the XDJ-Aero, etc. 

The question is: THEN What are those CDJ-850 engineers doing nowadays? Apparently releasing new color finishes and NOT support updates?

October 19, 2012 07:25
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Davmix

It is impressive how Pioneer turned a deaf ear to these problems.

October 20, 2012 00:55
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Gavin
Pioneer DJ

No deaf ear has been turned. We continue to listen to all your feedback and provide updates to the engineers (who directly view these threads themselves).

October 24, 2012 22:21
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Davmix

Ok Gavin, can you just tell us if future update is in progress for CDJ 850 ?

Thanks.

October 24, 2012 22:37
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Gavin
Pioneer DJ

It is always a priority to work on making the units the best they can be.

October 24, 2012 22:45
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quistuhpha

Can we get a somewhat clear and definitive answer? Hmm seems like you just avoided something. And I have a hard time believing what you're saying. Scroll back and you'll see me and another user made threads specifically regarding incorrect waveforms displaying almost a year ago.

October 25, 2012 07:08
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Gavin
Pioneer DJ

If you've a hard time believing what I'm saying then that doesn't really leave me with a whole lot of options to explain otherwise. I can only pass along the information that I am being told and, interpreting that information leads me to say that Pioneer will continue to tweak their products as much as possible.

October 25, 2012 08:26
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