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TORAIZ SP-16 - 32 Second Sample Limit (Explained)

Hi everyone,

You might have noticed myself posting recently. I’m a new moderator on the TORAIZ Forums along with D.j. Creme. I Just wanted to let you know that we’re listening to the feedback here and really appreciate seeing the passion and community forming around the TORAIZ SP-16. Ive been tasked to ensure I get back to your posts ASAP, and if I can’t help immediately I’ll raise a support ticket on your behalf direct to the TORAIZ engineers.

I feel the 32 second sample limit is a hot topic, so I thought this would be a good starting point to introduce myself officially.

Here is a brief explanation as to why we have chosen a 32 second sample limit.

When you receive the error message “CANNOT LOAD SAMPLE OVER 32 SECONDS”. This message appears when sample source files greater than 32 seconds in length are selected.

The SP-16 has 8GB of internal memory (flash ROM) and 256MB RAM for audio samples. The reason why we have limited the length of samples loaded is to ensure maximum performance utilising all performance features over all 16 TRACKS simultaneously. To switch between scenes whilst playing back the sequence, all of the samples used in the project must be loaded onto the RAM. Once above the 32 second sample length limit we start to jeopardise the performance of the hardware, hence why we need a sample length limit.

There are 16 TRACK's and 16 SCENE's, so in total there are 256 sample slots (16 x 16) in one PROJECT. The 256 sample slots share the 256MB RAM (without elaborating, 1MB per 1 sample slot). Here, we will calculate the the size of a 1 second sample as 44,100Hz x 3 Byte (24 bit) x 2 CH = 264KB. Note that some of these numbers have been rounded to the nearest whole number to make it easier to understand. 1MB divided by 264KB = 3.78 seconds.  If you want to assign different samples to every TRACK in each SCENE, the samples have to be less than 3.78 seconds. Remember you have in total 256MB RAM to play with, so the previous is the most extreme. Generally, a project will consist of one shots and loops which are duplicates of other samples used across other SCENE’s. The total size of the samples exceeding 256MB is up to the user.

Next, we considered what the optimal and convenient length of a sample is. The SP-16's pattern is up to 4 bars, so the longest loop is 16 seconds at 60 BPM. However, many users want to use longer loops and set the start/end point in the playback menu, for example, you could have a 32 second sample (16 bars at 120BPM) and select 8 seconds of that sample to create a 4 bar loop. Users would also like to record over 16 second samples, since recording guitars and vocals would require margins.

From the above reasons, we've balanced out the length and performance, choosing to limit the length of a sample to 32 seconds. Having said this, we are currently investigating how we can remove this limit but as its stands this is the current specification.

We hope this helps you understand why we gave the SP-16 a 32 second limit.

Thank you for your feedback so far.

Ste

Stephen Herdman

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Hi Ste,

 

Thanks for that explanation, makes sense, and it's good to know and to have a line of communication to you and the devs.

 

"Having said this, we are currently investigating how we can remove this limit but as its stands this is the current specification." - what you write here gives us hope that maybe the devs will allow us to configure and limit some scenes in our projects to less samples, but of a longer duration than 32 seconds, to balance as we would like, naturally within some sort of limitation.

 

Anyway, to the future....

 

Thanks again for chiming in.....

 

Simon

Simon Fine 1 vote
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Thanks for the info.

Maybe one idea would be to retain the 32s limit for sample tracks but have another track type with less features that streams from internal memory or the USB input on the front.

Dan P 2 votes
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I forgot to say, whatever you do adding features I hope you manage to keep it as easy to use. The UI on this thing is really nice, its a pleasure to use. There are a couple of features that need adding to bring it up a level but its got the makings of being a really nice instrument.

Dan P 3 votes
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32 seconds is a problem?

PRINCIPAL BUGS LIST:
- in midi track mode: the pads play the external instrument only if the toraiz stopped, pressing play is more can not sound the external instrument on the toraiz pad.
-in midi track mode: the quantization is not accurate, it is possible that some shots are not quantized properly while others.
-in midi track mode: many times, after recording a midi track, pressing play, the recorded MIDI track does not play.
You have to press STOP and then PLAY to make it sound.
-in slice editor: the slice editing is not accurate, the beginning and end of some slice can to clip.
-in slice editor: start and end are not accurate either pressing shift (it seems that the vertical bar does not move)
-in trig editor screen: the trig mode named"parameter" clipping if in use.
SIMPLE FEATURES REQUEST:
(To make Toraiz on par with all the modern sampler)
- Undo / Redo function
-ARPEGGIATOR!
-COUNT IN metronome, audible in play or only in record mode(selectable)
-parameter lock for more parameters (volume, pan, FX send amount, etc.)
-Ability to copy one step with all settings on another step.
-Ability to copy the same pattern a one page (example: 16-step cycle) on the next page, without having to rewrite everything.
-Ability to use a second insert fx for each track
-different BPM for different scene(important)
-Ability to choose more target parameters for Touchstrip user settings
-in midi track mode: possibility of playing the pads with Polyphony / chord
-Ability to USER SCALE MODE
-Ability to sample chain step by step through parameter lock( like Elektron Octatrack)
-IN SAMPLES FOLDER: possibility to close a folder without having to climb sample by sample to the main root folder (by minimizing the main encoder is used)
-IN SAMPLES FOLDER: possibility to erase the toraiz samples without having to connect to a PC

K! 0 votes
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 SP-16 has design problems in the operating system and user interface according to most of us users WE PURCHASED THE TORAIZ.
These are not simple requests! but functions that actually serve to improve the product we purchased.
We would be really grateful if you fail to follow these guidelines without having to resort to various petitions and stories. (With Dave "I who invented the synthesizer" Smith, often happens).
THIS IS NOT THE LIST OF BUG, BUT THE LIST OF GOING TO FUNCTION LOGIC MODIFIED AND FUNCTIONS THAT YOU HAVE NOT IMPLEMENTED:
-the method of insert trig for TR-REC step (style) is always active:
In this way it is easy to accidentally activate a trig. This mode must be modified: TR-REC mode must be available ONLY if the active REC is key and the sequencer is stopped (STOP)
-Choose A TRACK through the pad pressure:
If you press a pad to select ONLY the pad plays the assigned sample. This and 'a problem when you want to select only one track without playing it. (Without using the touch screen)
-A TRACK MUTE mutes both the sequence the pad:
If a track is muted, the corresponding pad does not sound when you press it.
This and 'a problem when you want to mute during a live ONLY THE SEQUENCE THAT TRACK RECORDED, keeping the possibility of being able to play the sample assigned by pressing the corresponding pad or by mode stairs.
-Fast UNDO / REDO: missing function.
Is a problem does not have the possibility to undo / redo fast during use.
-fast COPY / PASTE / ERASE:
Is ABSOLUTELY MUST implement the copy / paste function / erase:
_STEP And STEP PARAMETER
_track And TRACK PARAMETER
_track SEQUENCE
_LENGHT PAGE (example: copy the steps of steps on page 1-16 page 33-48).
Is EG can implement these functions through fast pressure:
_SHIFT + REC + PAD = COPY PAD SOUND & PARAMETERS
_SHIFT + PLAY + = PAD PAD PASTE SOUND & PARAMETERS
_SHIFT + + REC TRIG = COPY TRIG
_SHIFT + PLAY + PASTE = TRIG TRIG
_SHIFT + REC + STEPS PAGE = COPY STEPS PAGE
_SHIFT + PLAY + = PASTE STEPS STEPS PAGE PAGE
_SHIFT + REC = COPY TRACK SEQUENCE
_SHIFT PLAY + = PASTE TRACK SEQUENCE
_SHIFT + = STOP ERASE TRACK SEQUENCE
etc

K! 0 votes
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It may be that I will not keep the toraiz, this is the limit of 32 seconds. For guitars, vocals, various instruments type strings, saxophones, flute, it takes more than 32 seconds. I do not know if I will keep it because if the MPC X does more, I think to part. Too bad, because the ergonomics is top and the sequencer TR top. Try to lengthen this time by 32 seconds and there would be really great for users.

pierrugues 0 votes
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Considering it's a sampler it makes sense that the device would be geared to clips of music more so than a multi-track recording/playback scenario. And considering it's a device meant for djs/electronic/hiphop artists etc. it's all about tapping out beats and chopping up music clips and messing with it live to create new type of sounds and patterns etc. and the live aspect of flipping through those patterns, muting, effects,tweaking knobs, midi to my live synths.

Personally I would prefer the device and its features focus on the live aspect & sample based workflow because that's the device I bought.

My suggestion is that if you are looking for multitrack editing is that you find a device that's layed out better for that type of workflow. A multitrack recorder or a pc. Current info from MPC is that you can have up to 8 full tracks playing in the background and the samples that you are triggering are limited to (i think) 8 seconds although it's not entirely clear. In either cause these systems are using limited amounts of ram and processing speeds, so they will max out way sooner then a standard pc. 

 

But having said all that, I do have some tracks that are longer than 32 seconds and while I don't actually need the full file, I do need to clip out a part of it. it's be nice if I could do that. It's rare that I need that functionality though so I'd consider it a lower priority.

 

Side note: K! you gotta chill out, you are stressing me out man. :p

 

 

 

pronobozo 2 votes
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PronoBozo -agreed x2. To me the 32 second limitation is not really a big deal. If you really want to play full backing tracks get a karaoke machine. If it's a hardware a limitation, in other words we can just upgrade the RAM then let's drop this. And move onto fixing other bugs and issues.

srmaietta 1 vote
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Ste, appreciate you taking the time to reply and i hope your team can be a bit more consistent in engaging with the users on this forum. at the end its only through engaged interaction with your customers , you can enhance the feature set of your products. 

May be you can help clarify the below: ( for me 2 this 32sec is not a big deal, however the inability to load samples beyond 6 scenes was and I ENDED UP SORTING IT MYSELF WITH NO SUPPORT FROM PIO DJ) I guess you guys are figuring out the unit as much as we are!

 

1. Everything here comes down to the 256mb RAM and how you have coded the OS which resides on the ROM and the interaction between the two. So is it possible that some portion of the 8gb ROM operates as dynamic RAM once booted. Some OS coding will be required to ensure a very optimum sharing of duties. e.g. hard disk streaming e.t.c- just to throw an idea. 

2. Can you get a more dynamic allocation of RAM such that when a user loads a sample >32secs , the OS auto adjusts the no of scenes and tracks available. Technically i should be able to load 128sec sample on 16 tracks, with only 8 scenes playable and so on. 

I agree with some of the views above that fixing some core features e.g. copy paste, undo, redo , a more effective scale function e.t.c should be the priority. 

TCO TCO (Cosmic Order) 0 votes
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Hi everyone,

We are regularly checking back on this and appreciate all of your replies so far! Our engineers are viewing all of your suggestions for feature requests and ways to fix bugs that have been raised so far.

Thanks,

Stephen Herdman 0 votes
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@K!....

wow, where to begin.... what you describe is effectively a broken machine lol

mind boggling o_o i had to look away after the first paragraph. basically the meat and potatoes of every sampler/sequencer ever made that had become standard functionality for decades, tried and proven, have been completely fudged

the only solace i find is when i bought a second command station and it had system version 1.0. it was basically a tape recorder. ie it was so limited and unusable it was like a cruel joke. same thing as here, i could not imagine what it would have been like to have bought it new with that os

having said that, 1.0 was completely updated within a year or two of initial release(don't quote me) and the changes and additions were incredible when it reached 2.0

 

K! Wrote:

PRINCIPAL BUGS LIST:
- in midi track mode: the pads play the external instrument only if the toraiz stopped, pressing play is more can not sound the external instrument on the toraiz pad.
-in midi track mode: the quantization is not accurate, it is possible that some shots are not quantized properly while others.
-in midi track mode: many times, after recording a midi track, pressing play, the recorded MIDI track does not play.
You have to press STOP and then PLAY to make it sound.
-in slice editor: the slice editing is not accurate, the beginning and end of some slice can to clip.
-in slice editor: start and end are not accurate either pressing shift (it seems that the vertical bar does not move)
-in trig editor screen: the trig mode named"parameter" clipping if in use.
SIMPLE FEATURES REQUEST:
(To make Toraiz on par with all the modern sampler)
- Undo / Redo function
-ARPEGGIATOR!
-COUNT IN metronome, audible in play or only in record mode(selectable)
-parameter lock for more parameters (volume, pan, FX send amount, etc.)
-Ability to copy one step with all settings on another step.
-Ability to copy the same pattern a one page (example: 16-step cycle) on the next page, without having to rewrite everything.
-Ability to use a second insert fx for each track
-different BPM for different scene(important)
-Ability to choose more target parameters for Touchstrip user settings
-in midi track mode: possibility of playing the pads with Polyphony / chord
-Ability to USER SCALE MODE
-Ability to sample chain step by step through parameter lock( like Elektron Octatrack)
-IN SAMPLES FOLDER: possibility to close a folder without having to climb sample by sample to the main root folder (by minimizing the main encoder is used)
-IN SAMPLES FOLDER: possibility to erase the toraiz samples without having to connect to a PC

SP-16 has design problems in the operating system and user interface according to most of us users WE PURCHASED THE TORAIZ.
These are not simple requests! but functions that actually serve to improve the product we purchased.
We would be really grateful if you fail to follow these guidelines without having to resort to various petitions and stories. (With Dave "I who invented the synthesizer" Smith, often happens).
THIS IS NOT THE LIST OF BUG, BUT THE LIST OF GOING TO FUNCTION LOGIC MODIFIED AND FUNCTIONS THAT YOU HAVE NOT IMPLEMENTED:
-the method of insert trig for TR-REC step (style) is always active:
In this way it is easy to accidentally activate a trig. This mode must be modified: TR-REC mode must be available ONLY if the active REC is key and the sequencer is stopped (STOP)
-Choose A TRACK through the pad pressure:
If you press a pad to select ONLY the pad plays the assigned sample. This and 'a problem when you want to select only one track without playing it. (Without using the touch screen)
-A TRACK MUTE mutes both the sequence the pad:
If a track is muted, the corresponding pad does not sound when you press it.
This and 'a problem when you want to mute during a live ONLY THE SEQUENCE THAT TRACK RECORDED, keeping the possibility of being able to play the sample assigned by pressing the corresponding pad or by mode stairs.
-Fast UNDO / REDO: missing function.
Is a problem does not have the possibility to undo / redo fast during use.
-fast COPY / PASTE / ERASE:
Is ABSOLUTELY MUST implement the copy / paste function / erase:
_STEP And STEP PARAMETER
_track And TRACK PARAMETER
_track SEQUENCE
_LENGHT PAGE (example: copy the steps of steps on page 1-16 page 33-48).
Is EG can implement these functions through fast pressure:
_SHIFT + REC + PAD = COPY PAD SOUND & PARAMETERS
_SHIFT + PLAY + = PAD PAD PASTE SOUND & PARAMETERS
_SHIFT + + REC TRIG = COPY TRIG
_SHIFT + PLAY + PASTE = TRIG TRIG
_SHIFT + REC + STEPS PAGE = COPY STEPS PAGE
_SHIFT + PLAY + = PASTE STEPS STEPS PAGE PAGE
_SHIFT + REC = COPY TRACK SEQUENCE
_SHIFT PLAY + = PASTE TRACK SEQUENCE
_SHIFT + = STOP ERASE TRACK SEQUENCE
etc

haze3000 0 votes
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I expect to be amazed.
aspect of the sampler was expecting!
unfortunately I have just completed the DSI Tempest updates ... Dave Smith was a liar .... I believed a liar.
for me it is now hard to believe in a revolution OS on a machine designed differently from producers

K! 0 votes
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I actually really like the SP-16....Yes there are plenty of features that could and hopefully will be added.

However I always research new gear before I buy it and would never shell out £1300 without knowing what it can and can't do..Should always buy gear (especially expensive) on what it can do out the box and not what you hope will be added.

Also I think Pioneer have been pretty good on updates so far...Released in August and soon to be up to version 1.3.

Sadly most hardware is released early these days and in effect we become beta testers but this goes for most hardware I own Elektron are great for this but that doesn't stop me making music and enjoying the hardware.

Anyway thanks for the explanation on the 32 secs limit and really doesn't cause much concern for me but there's other hardware options out there if this is a issue.

S.

StanCollins 1 vote
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Is the midi in working yet? so i can use my keyboard midi out to toraiz midi in

Jova 0 votes
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Holy crap what idiot at pioneer thought 256MB of ROM is enough for a modern sampler. Whoever it is needs sacking, like it needs to be at least 1GB. 

 

The NEW MPC is 2GB and has a decent processor, if the machine cost half to money i would expect these issues but not at this price point.

Thanks for explaining at least i understand why all the feature limits, its just not powerful enough.

 

Scott Rotton 0 votes
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It is the difference in philosophy. Toraiz is not designed to load tons of samples for complex editing. That will be done by MPC.

Meanwhile, just adding more memories to Toraiz will not make Toraiz a better machine.
It must be handled in total package of software and hardware.

My feeling is that Toraiz already does well enough on the ground where it is supposed to be standing.
Especially, looking at demos when it is combined with CDJs it's incomparable with other machines, but even when used alone it has a power to supply creativity.

New MPCs are in a way more of "classic" and may work well for traditional production workflow but at the moment I am still not fully convinced yet.

Fire Cracker 0 votes
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Sorry dont agree at all on this one, 32 sec is not a deal breaker for me but i do expect an expensive / premium sampler to handle larger files better, if it had more memory thjis would be easy they load the whole sample, there are ways around it,im sure the engineers know how to fix its just not easy, ive got an IT background  so have some ideas around it, 

 

1, kill one of the tracks, then use extra memory as a buffer to play next 32 sec clip in the following section, then free up the memory the track before was using top play the next, that way you can to at least play long evolving textures or builds (what i would be using it for) downside is no live re sampling or slicing but for me thats no big deal. at least i would be able to trigger my long textures and use it for what i originally intended it to

Scott Rotton 0 votes
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The new MPC will basically be a PC in a box. That 2GB of RAM will most likely have to be used for the OS as well. 256MB of RAM is quite a lot actually. Twice as much as the Octatrack has. I think they just need to allow the user to decide how they want to use that RAM instead of putting a cap on the length of samples that can be loaded. I would rather get a "Out of Memory" error when trying to load too many samples than the current configuration.

Midnight Music Club 1 vote
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I would rather get a "Out of Memory" error when trying to load too many samples than the current configuration.

> that is so annoying ! when previewing list of sample and loose time with that popup. The operating system should diminished the possibility according to the loaded sample in RAM. RAM should be handle dynamically allocated. 

Jessie James 0 votes
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Octatrack Stream from the Compact Flash for informations and it's working great and released in 2011 :)

Jessie James 0 votes
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How cool would it be to add a little synthesizer engine inside the TORAIZ with factory and custom presets. Give it ADSR, Filters, modulations, etc. - fully integrated w/ the samples. Poly the scale notes too. It's a disappointment to have nice wav synth sounds and only be able to play them in monophonic patterns. 

Offer chainable FX - at least 2 or 3 and ONE MORE LFO! Is there a hint at what's in the upcoming updates?  

Thank you!

Shawn Wilson 0 votes
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I don't know the Roland mv 8000 came stock with 128 mv ram and you get way more sampling time and can do way more, minus the touch screen
And it's old hardware. Has vocal tracks mastering . And you can get one used for 400 bucks , I own one which is why I'm not mad
About toriaz vs akai mpc aspect. But. I think pioneer needs to understand this their are older cheaper products dj' can use. So they have to go all out for the price we paid. Make the choice. Between. Sp-16 and ak akai mpc much harder for consumers dollars . Me personally. All I need is 2. To 3 fx per track. Or 2 fx and an eq per track I would be good .

Mikepepp 0 votes
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Does anyone else just stop and ask "why, in 2016-2017, are you releasing devices with such little RAM" at all? 

RAM isn't expensive these days. Neither is storage. Neither are Li-Ion batteries!

This thing looks like a lot of fun - A LOT of fun. Still, for the price, it seems to be lacking the internal battery, the higher RAM count, and the larger internal HD storage the new Akai unit will ship with.

I've been all NI in the past, with a Roland sampler for awhile, so I'm not a Pioneer fanboy, or AKAI... I'm just looking at both bc I want a hardware solution for bridging/performing my Maschine projects live... Leave the laptop to run Serato or Traktor, and only that.


They both look interesting, in different ways. Still, for the price - you really could have gone with 16 gigs internal, 512 (or 1gig) RAM, and a battery... Or drop this thing to $999.

It's a beautiful design, really clever way to implement a bunch of cool features. But guys... Please stop releasing products with specs below my iPhone 7Plus... It's embarrassing!

BobbyDuracel 0 votes
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Feature request: 

If the decision stands to stay at 32 second max, can you at least look at adding functionality in a future update to truncate longer samples to 32 seconds when importing from USB drives? 

Reeeeeee! Generator 1 vote
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Currently waiting on an SP-16 to arrive - looking forward to checking it out after a lot of online research - hoping it'll suit my live setup as well as I think it will.

Regarding the 32 second limit - when I was using an MPC1000 years back for live hip-hop gigs, to get around the small RAM it has, and allow me to load more samples in, I used to pitch my longer samples up an octave before importing (reducing the length / file size) then once in I would pitch them back down.

Presumably that'll work here too?

samomalo 0 votes
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Please remove the 32 second limit. Your collaboration with Splice is hurting your reputation when many of their samples cannot be played due to your 32 second limit. I downloaded many splice sounds and cannot play them on your sampler. This is not professional in my point of view and should be fixed. It is frustrating to have so many good samples over 32 seconds that cannot be played. 

 

Jon Zonta 0 votes
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Also, in your future production samplers. My suggestion is that you add the option to expand the memory. A professional sampler should after all, be able to store more sounds and projects than the current limit you offer. Perhaps an addition of a hard drive such as the one's in the Playstation 4 where one can swap and add more memory if needed. We are in the Terabytes right now..

Jon Zonta 0 votes
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I saw Pulse post here for Pioneer and said it will not be removed. But I really think Pioneer must to find something to permit user to get a better experience when previewing files that larger than this 32seconds limit... or maybe a way to deactivate some pads to get longer time on dedicate one... something for the user to manage the memory... I don't know but that's why I not kept it with FX2 slots (or at least 1EQ per track and a second send FX). Otherwise I'm in everyday as I really like it.

Jessie James 0 votes
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