I recently played a set somewhere and i used my Zoom H6 to record from the mixer's Send outputs (Can't remember the mixer, it was a DJM between 600-850) and listening back to the recording I can hear a significant reduction in quality of the songs compared to just listening to them in my itunes or something. It just sounds shitty and I don't know why. I was averaging -6 to -3dB on the mic's mixer (Never peaked though). I assumed because i was sending the signal straight from the mixer into the microphone that there would be no difference in sound quality. It's not like I had the actual microphone recording in front of the speakers.
I basically want to know if there is any difference in quality from the mixer outputs. Like Send out, Booth out, rec out, master2 out, etc. Is there an optimal way?
As far as portable recorders go, the zoom H6 is decent... I mean I paid a fair bit for it, so you'd hope it could do a simple thing such as recording a DJ set.
Appreciate any help :)
Post is closed for comments.
Well, for starters, you shouldn't be using the SEND for a recording output - that's not what it's for. The REC output or one of the master outputs would have been a better choice, but would need a different cable for the H6's inputs.
Ok thanks, so I will start using the rec output. Only reason I haven't used it before is I don't have a stereo rca to stereo 1/4. So will using that give me a recording that doesn't sound changed at all? Does the actual mic quality have an impact on the straight recording of a signal?
The nice thing about the REC output is the levels are based on the channel levels, not the master level. That allows you to have the master output wherever you need it for the venue without it affecting your recording levels.
There is no mic involved in the recording, so the quality of the mic on the unit has no bearing. The only time that would be of importance is if you're recording ambient sounds at a venue and wanted to include those in your recording on the H6.
Ok thanks for your response :)
I know this is probably discussed in other places on the forum (Couldn't find it though :/) but should I be aiming to peak tracks at 0dB on the channels and leave the extra 10dB for lets say... less compressed tracks? Most DJs I see are hitting +7 or even +10 dB on the channel meters. The big problem i see with this is when you have a track that is mastered quietly and you don't have enough headroom to bring it up to the same perceivable level. The only benefit I can see of averaging your channel meters at 7-10 dB is getting more volume out of your speakers (but that's assuming they're not loud enough for what you want them to do anyway). The meters are also of course less accurate the higher you go.
The mixers have around 19-21dB overhead, but I've always used the mixers targeting 0dB for my levels. If I need more volume, I make that adjustment to the gain stage post-mixer, either at my processing or amplifiers.
A poorly-mastered track should have its level boosted at the channel trim/gain (the first gain stage). One of the worst I have is Lou Reed's Transformer album. I have to nearly crank my gains all the way to the maximum available to reach near 0dB, but with that set and the channel full-open, I'm meeting the sound level of another track without a problem. And like you say, the worst case scenario where I have the channel gain full-open and it's still not enough, I could use the master level to boost it there too.
So I ended up getting the right cables to use the REC OUT into my Zoom H6, and im still having problems!
http://imgur.com/LNrdVix Have a look at the waveform (L and R)
Why on earth is one side being limited heaps the entire mix? Both channels were averaging -10 to -6dB on my recorder, and they were only sometimes hitting 1 red bar on the djm mixer. Of course the bottom waveform sounds like absolute shite.
Just no idea why its all going so wrong lol.
So i realised that the DIFFERENCE between the two was because I speaker balance slightly skewed (One of my speakers is louder and closer than the other so i just skew the balance (I should just change the volume on the back of the speaker)) And after a bit of research it seems that even with 1 red bar on the djm mixer it limits the signal. I really need to get used to djing around 0dB on the mixer channels and only using that headroom for quieter tracks! It's crazy how many djs I've seen average 7-10dB on their mixers, often hitting 1 bar of red (I thought it only clips on 2 bars but seems like it doesnt). So everytime I see a well recorded set on the internet that doesn't look like a brick, it's because the DJ is most likely averaging 0-7dB on their mixer? (Not going into red)
Sorry to post a third time in a row, but Im slightly confused again!
The fact that only one side of the signal was clipping the entire set makes me question the clipping stage on the channels... The non-clipping side was obviously hitting the red on the mixer at the same time as the other side hitting the red, but it didn't clip? That makes me think that the clipping came from somewhere else? From the stereo balancing stage (master?)??? So confused!
lol - no worries, better to post more and have all the info!
Geeyuh, that waveform sure looks like a brick. What's interesting is the mixer's analog outputs provide roughly 19dB of headroom before there's any signal clipping. It would look more like that if you were using the digital and clipping or had the analog into the red.
When you say the levels weren't in the red, are you talking about the channels as well as the master? Because the recording output levels are based on the channel level, not the master level. If the channels are hitting red, that is a possibility as your levels are down on the recorder offering the headroom you see between the top of the brick and the top of the waveform area.
I grabbed your screenshot and did an overlay to show the difference:
You can see even near the start where the one track was quieter, the bricked track must have been significantly louder in order to hit that hard line.
I would first try balancing the levels L/R then ensure your channel levels are more toward 0dB. Let me know how that goes.
Sorry, I may have been unclear. The channel faders were hitting the red (Thought definitely not as often as that brick waveform was clipping) And they were usually only just touching 1 bar of red. Is the 19dB of headroom from 0dB upwards? If so, why would it clip so hard just touching 1 red bar? (Master was no where near red). I recorded something again afterwards with the balance in the middle and sitting around 0dB, and the recording was perfectly fine and sounding great. Whenever I try to keep around 0dB i always creep up towards 7-10. Gotta really learn to stay put!
Also I still don't understand how one side was clipping and the other wasn't o.O
I played on a radio show last night and wanted to record the set. Because this particular radio show had bad reception on the radio, the guy wanted me to stay fairly close to the top on the channel meters (Although he understood that if I hit red the recording will sound like crap) but that just made me think there will probably be many situations at a club or whatever where I'm told to increase my channel meters (To a point where im either sometimes or often hitting 1 bar of red) (And I don't know because I haven't played at a club so I don't know what most people are like). So would there be a way around that?
I believe the 19dB overhead refers to the master signal, although I've seen DJMs with the levels PINNED to the top of the red and they didn't sound as distorted as your recording looks! Yes, the measurement is from 0dB up; so +19dB would be the "top" output level without distortion.
With regards to the radio show wanting more signal, it sounds like the guy doesn't understand gain stages; you can keep the levels around zero for the channel and master and he can boost it on his board; the DJMs have more than hot enough signal from the master outputs. If you needed more level, you could then turn up the master; that way he gets more signal and it still doesn't affect your recording levels.
