Hi Pioneer guys. At the risk of sounding truly ancient, I've been switching over from vinyl to digital and am a bit mystified about what looks like a gap in the Pioneer's product range. Well, everyone's product range actually.
Here's the thing. With a day job as well as DJ gigs, last thing I want to do is bring my laptop to club or bar, to stare at it some more while mixing tunes. I think Traktor and Serato are great products, no offense there, I just think in any club/bar environment where you're up close and personal with the crowd, I don't want and patrons don't want to see me noodling away on a laptop. Visual impressions matter.
So that points me at CDJs, ok no worries. But at the same time I'm perplexed why CDJs nowadays need CD players inside them at all, with all the size, weight, cost and reliability issues they bring with them, rather than just USB stick input. Maybe there's a legacy issue of building systems that people can play ye olde audio CDs on. But I would expect that to be fading pretty fast, and already wouldn't apply to everyone - EG my music collection is vinyl + wav/mp3, with no physical CD collection in between.
I guess I'm saying I want the pioneer quality build of an interface device like a DDJ S1/T1/ERGO, built large and comfortable for serious use, but I don't want to have to plug a laptop into it, just a USB stick with some tunes. Put another way, I want a pair of CDJ900s but I don't want to pay for CD slots in them I'll never use. I've seen a few bottom-end rinkydink products from other manufacturers along these lines, but they're tiny mounts with 2-inch jog wheels and 4 inch pitch sliders. Pathetic. At the upper end Numark have the NS7 which seems almost the thing. So how about it? Or am I being really dense and not seeing you're already making this? Thanks for reading.
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Some of us have been calling for this for a looooooooooooooooooooooong time now.
I can't imagine it's not in the pipeline somewhere at Pioneer though, but the wait is killing me!
I was hoping something along these lines would be unveiled at NAMM, but we only got The Only Way Is Essex limited edition models of the CDJ2000 and DJM900 Nexus...
@Cynan > thanks for your comments!
I think the direction Pioneer have been focusing their efforts in the last few years is to take the laptop away from being the center piece in a DJs setup. If you think about, Rekordbox gives you the laptop-ability of organization without the actual need of a laptop. However, it also recognizes that some DJs may actually want to use their laptop during a gig so it gives that option also. Similarly, the focus with the controllers is to have them sitting over the laptop, such that you only see the screen and the direction is taken away from the keyboard - you can do all your 'controlling' from the 'controller' (duh!) so it never looks like you are 'checking your emails'.
The CD slots on the CDJs aren't exactly the most expensive part and their inclusion was simply to facilitate the transition from older CDJs (like the 1000s / 800s for example) to the newer CDJs. Please don't take this as a hint but I can't imagine a CD tray being included in future CDJ models (what will we call them then?!!).
Thus far, I think we are on the right track.
@Cheeba > If they were The Only Way Is Essex edition models surely they would have been luminous orange! ;)
After a night's reflection on this topic I've also got to say that Pioneer aren't ever the first to do something. They assess the market, refine a product in development ...and then drop a killer piece of kit. Those products aren't always totally faultless, but they're nearly always the best thing at what they do (CDJ's being a very obvious point in case) and I actually prefer that restrained approach to product development / release, despite how agonizing it can be at times for those of us with money to spend!
@ Gav - Good point, but I was referring to the omnipresent Range Rover Evoque, rather than their skin tone!
I am still on the fence with this, I thought about it too, My issue is on private events every once in a while a client will bring a cd to play a track off of that they had made, Or some kind of entertainment at the event where they bring a cd for me to play their special music, In this case, I would be screwed, Unless Pioneer makes an option to install a drive if you wanted to pay for it, Like a laptop cd rom slide in type, Denon did this with the 5500 and it was a great option, you were able to buy the deck stock which was just a controller but you can add a hard drive tray to install a drive inside the deck OR install a cd rom "if" you were the type that may still need one from time to time
oh and while we are at it, Add an option to plug in a small usb keyboard, this was so convenient on the other "guys player", when needing to search fast you can actually type with speed instead of using a search strip
Hi Gavin, thanks for the speedy response, much appreciated. And Cheeba thanks for confirmation I'm not alone on this one :-)
I quite agree that with the DDJS1 etc product the laptop is much less in the centre of the gig setup and I totally commend you all on that. And that is great. Why not product(s) that do away with it all together though? Certainly for live performance (ableton etc) you'll always want a screen. Lots of people/situations who might not though.
Why have I got a bug in my ear about this?
My other half is a post-doctoral neuro/psychologist. She’s (patiently!) explained to me that in a vinyl-only setup, your brain has to do zero (or minimal) processing of text aka 'verbal processing'. IE, when you’re flipping through a record bag, you’re really only looking at colours and shapes of sleeves and record sides. Your memory of a track is stored as ‘which colour sleeve, which side, outside or inside track on the 12"’. There’s no real mental searching for the artist or title of the track – you’re not really thinking of a string of text. Ditto, when looking at a needle on a record. There’s no numeric display of track duration / time remaining, there’s no processing of numbers going on in your cortex. (Obviously most CDJs and software realise this and over the years have given better and better GUI or visual not numeric cues around this).
All of this lowers your cognitive load, and you don’t have to change gears into verbal processing. You’re literally staying away from using that part of the brain. And for all your home or home/pro users who might be programmers or any kind of knowledge workers, poring over code, scripts, documents, spreadsheets etc all day (and who isn't??), eliminate verbal processing from the flow and you’ve given them a really significantly different -- and very likely much more enjoyable/relaxing -- experience.
I’m not aware of any DJ software that completely allows you to get away from reading text off a screen during track selection. Would be v pleased to be corrected though?
So by all means have Rekordbox program to sort your bags at home before a gig. But a screen display (touch screen display?) that is very strongly oriented towards visual representations, will have the feel of a very and more natural different process. Graphical interfaces attract us because pattern recognition beats verbal (ie text) processing. Now iPhones have done this for years as a bit of a gimmick when you turn them sideways. Album art, flip through. Extend that idea and refine it to handle a box full of tunes displayed primarily as cover art, allowing flicking-through and selection by swiping and tapping on-screen, and we are just about all the way back to proper zero-text ‘workflow’ and interface.
Or, more concretely:
(1) if I really must plug something into a DDJ-T1 type device, make it a touchscreen tablet not a laptop. And obviously plug in properly, alesis IO-dock stylee.
(2) give me Pioneer/Rekordbox app to go with, that has an almost purely graphical view of my ‘box’ of records uncluttered with text or numbers, that I can swipe through and grab/drag items from it just like a record box onto each deck.
Pretty sure I’m telling your grandmother how to suck eggs on this, but needed to get it off my chest :-) Thanks for reading.
I really, really don't get it. What you're asking for is a deck, or 2 deck + mixer combo device, that does everything that current decks and mixers do, but just don't have a CD drive?
Pioneer hit a sweet spot with their current jog wheel tech, introduced on the CDJ-1000 - smaller than a turntable and non-rotational, it still delivers for most users. Anything smaller, for a lot of people, just doesn't feel right. Look at the screen on a CDJ-2000, that's not about to get any smaller either, so along with the jog wheel, removing the CD drive isn't about to make the unit more compact.
Do not forget that these DJ controllers are just that - _controllers. _Empty brainless boxes which just send little signals to your laptop to turn something on or off, or set a numerical value to a parameter. The laptop (along with your little Serato/Traktor box) is the decks. That's where the magic happens.
What about these career DJs (think small gig, weeddings, entertainers), who have MASSIVE CD collections. Why should the new tech alienate them and their classic music collection, potentially sought after by many, which would take eons to digitise?
And another thing! A USB keyboard/touchscreen? I thought we were just discussing NOT having laptop involved. I just can't see the logic behind such a device, it doesn't seem viable to me, just silly.
@Cynan > What you said about physically looking througha vinyl collection is completely true. Most vinyl users I know, myself included, have commented on that feature of using vinyls for years. Your tracks have a physical location and visual representation. CD or digital collections cannot replicate this, and so is just a wall of text whether you're identifying by genre, track length, speed or key or whatever. It's why I hate hate hate shopping for music online instead of a record shop.
the usb keyboard part makes sense, Picture the 2000's as is, no laptop, Plug in a usb drive and a small prattle usb keyboard you can keep off to the side of mounted above the mixer, now if a client or MC asks for a song last minute and u want to search and drop it quick, it's much easier having a small keyboard there then the trying to type on the needle strip. One of the "D" 5500 decks had this when I owned them and it worked great, so quick and literally no reason to ever bring a laptop. Right now the only reason i need to keep my laptop on gigs LINKED is because I do here and there search for a track and drop it in, I cannot do this quickly on needle strip
prattle=little
@Mark90: yes absolutely, that's one way of looking at it. CD slots are legacy bits of kit. Let's lose them. At least in some of the product range. And see what that would open up without them.
I'm aware that controllers are dumb boxes. But if you can play tunes off USB sticks in a base model (CDJ400), how complicated does the 'box where the magic happens' have to be? Anyway I don't really care about reduction in size. Anything serious has to be big enough to work comfortably on in a dark room. It's bringing and plugging in piles of additional devices that just clutter what should be clean.
And another thing! A USB keyboard/touchscreen? I thought we were just discussing NOT having laptop involved.
Correct. Ideally no computer device necessary at all, beyond mixer and CDJ/USBJs. But if I do make that concession, give me a very GUI touchscreen device as replacement for a physical record bag, not a (non touch screen) laptop, if it's the closest we can get to "analogue" workflow. If that's a mount to plug in an android device, or ipod dock, or what the display area on the CDJ2000 ramps up to become, all to the good.
@BriChi: nice. tiny USB keyboard (only when necessary) beats laptop!
Pretty damn complicated really.
Take a standard turntable: Record makes needle vibrate. Vibration is sent as electrical signal from needle to mixer. Easy.
Now take a 'simple' CDJ: Media interface required. Read media. Decode data. Read and buffer data to allow jog wheel use. Begin to process data (play). Apply mathematically complex Master Tempo algorithm. Apply pitch adjustment.
All the while the player must be ready to flip to reverse play if required, set cue points - whoops, we need memory for that. Looping? In and out points... more memory slots there too.
All the while the screen has to be visually representing the processed data depending on the DJs preferred settings.
We haven't even looked into effects!
I simply can't see the requirement for losing CD drives. There are no gains whatsoever. None.
@Mark90 Many thanks for the kind explanation. Nonetheless, all that can be built into a base model CDJ400 for both USB-stick and CD input. The advantage of losing the CD drives is that no one is paying for the manufacture and servicing and insuring of what is (for an increasing number of DJs) an obsolete and unnecessary component. Pioneer don't build a little vinyl turntable into every CDJ sold. It is the same principle.
I hope you agree that this would represent a gain. Whether this gain is outweighed by the costs (eg: for people with thousands of CDs they don't want to rip) is a related but different question.
If it helps: if Gavin says that the CD unit is fairly negligible (say comprises £5 of the value in a unit that retails £400) I can see this is a pretty irrelevant point. (Not that I expect him to talk about such internal issues publicly). But if its £40 of a £400 unit, it is probably not an irrelevant point to the company and/or consumer. Who will be using CDs in 5 years? They possess all of the impracticality of vinyl and none of the charm :-)
A connectable device like an iPad etc would be a nice touch but remember, we need the players to be able to perform all these functions without the use of a device that not everybody has.
I'm inclined to agree that the age of the CD is dying. If I had to guess, I would say there may be one more CDJ with a CD slot and that's it. Demand will be assessed and a decision will be made based on this analysis whether a CD slot will be included in future.
Thanks for the input Gavin.
I don't see how bringing out a pro-spec CDJ2000-like device that plays files only - HDDJ2000? Ooo! SSDJ2000! - would, "alienate", DJ's with massive CD collections (of which I'm one, btw), it's just another product after all. It could (and would) sit happily along side CD players in the Pioneer line-up for years.
Scan scan scan ... reply.
Backwards compatibility and a minimal cost are the reasons. Not everyone is onto a computer or USB source audio yet. CDs "just work". Why kill it?
Pulse and Mark 90 you are right on to me in time things will change and if you look at the history of the DJ we have picked up speed in the last 15 years but for now we are ok.LOL I can take on case or book of cds and play for five hours or more and still have a ton i can play for days (WE NEVER PLAY IT ALL)the 15 or more pounds is killing me LOL help.and i have the CDJ 1000 2 + 2 CDJ900 and 2 Technics 1210 just keep the quality #1 as a DJ put your hart and soul in it use what you can pay for and in (TIME) it will come well know times are hard later DJ CHICAGO.
I DJ with multi format devices, ie Midi controllers, Flash drives, SD cards, Laptop with DVS, CDs. I've tried just using a controller and Laptop but learnt it's best practice to have a back up on stand by. I now always carry CD's with me no matter what my main source may be and I will never again use just a midi controller, it has to be a CDJ with HID/ Midi and USB
I think the CDs will continue to matter for a while.
Imagine if you've got a collection of *thousands* of CDs (mobile DJs...).
Imagine Pioneer would come up with this (fictional) USBDJ-3000 player that only plays files (from harddrives, USBsticks, whatever). Would you upgrade and make all your *thousands* of CDs obsolete?
I am inclined to think that if there would be a majority of buyers fitting this profile, Pioneer would not try to sell something that a majority of people wouldn't buy (because it would make their music collection investment obsolete just for the "fun" of having nice eye candy features like touchscreens and the likes).
Something to think about.... my two cents.
Doesn't this guy get a free XDJ-Aero now there was a policy of idea made = free unit?
@Sammy > What do you mean?
dunno i saw some post on the RMX to , Someone submitted an idea and was supposed to get a free RMX unit?
The cheque is in the mail.
uh what?
You might want to pack a lunch.
Why would i want to pack a lunch? I don't get this but okay.
Someone really needs to explain what is going on with some regular understand-able words.
you're a few sandwiches short of a picnic
means?
Like i was close to the correct answer but didn't get it?
Always bring some snacks to a gig - you're likely to spend a lot energy doing all that spinning, which will get you hungry.