SP16 Toraiz Midi Sync Issues with last update 1.6

Can you provide some additional information as to what kind of problems you're having with the sync? Thanks.

yes, sure. i use a lot the Toraiz in my live acts as a main brain sending midi clock. i use a Roland TR8S and a Roland MC101 as slaves and before the update everything seemd to be normal, after updating to 1.6 i note that in general the internal time strech on my samples sounded a bit weird, perhaps just a small drift but noticeable at least for me. then when i connect to the other hardware in slave mode the sync is impossible, there is at least between 0,3-0,5 and 1 bpm difference sometimes up sometimes down... impredectible.

the config i am using is: 

project midi in: all disabled (do not need any incoming midi)

project midi out: 
clock = enable
start/stop/continue = enable
midi note cc = disable (cause do not need it neither)
song position = enable (tried both with similar results)

midi internal

midi out = out (din)

so it is pretty basic, cause i only need the Toraiz send an accurate clock to other hardwares, and it is not working...

then, i tried to use it as slave and it works well the first 5-6 minutes and then start to get out of sync with small drift that sound like out of phase, so impossible to use it.

last Friday played in a club and had to disconnect the midi and sync the other machines manually doing magic to play the live set... but it is really annoying and bothers me a lot.

seems like midi capabilities got worst after the last update, hope this is a revisable bug and you guys take the plunge here and get it solved asap.

thanks.

now i updated again over the same update.. i mean 1.6 to 1.6 and seem to be a bit better but when i switch scenes on the fly, sometimes yes sometimes no, makes a drift and unaccuracy stuff... it is not always now, but most of the times... something really weird.

all the samples with time-streching i am using have two efx, maybe is because of this ? something that is overworking the processor or whatever ? i will try to use less efx and keep testing.

why this unit is in general so weak in terms of midi ? it is not stable in general, i know a guy that has 2 x Sp16 and he is totally unable to sync both... which is crazy... he uses a midi sync box or something like that to get accurated clock... but at least to me everything was working really well... just until the update! 
 

thanks.

if you set up a new prj do you still have issues? This is very concerning. The SP-16 is the core of my production and live rig. I have not been able to reproduce what you're seeing yet but if there are issues with internal timing now, this is a major issue.

i kept trying after re-updating 1.6 to 1.6 but the behavior is totally unstable... sometimes it works better sometimes not... i tried reducing efx and seems to be a bit more accurate. for some reason it seems that the CPU (or similar) overloads or something like that so i do not have any good news from the SP16 camp at the moment... it is really strange cause sometimes i press PLAY and seems to work, sometimes not, simply press play and start to drift and the mess comes.

i even created a new project with only 1 x sample (a kick) and then made a 4/4 pattern classical basic stuff 1-5-9-13 steps you know... and sometimes goes ok sometimes not ... it is crazy!!

so i do not know what to do. maybe it is something mechanical with the play/stop button ? do not think so... cause when i use the Toraiz alone (i mean with no other machine) everything seems to be fine... it is something with the MIDI stuff... and of course i've checked it with several different midi cables, just in case.

hi Pioneer! can you please give me any kind of reply someday ??? i wrote you on 25th November, 15 days ago! bufff...

in the meanwhile i am testing some alternatives, and managed to record a video showing the issue: 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l47gqdtg1vmdgzr/toraiz%20bug.mp4?dl=0

there is no voice, but you can check that first i am showing the gear i am using: SP16 midi out to Roland TR8S midi in then from the TR8S midi out to midi in Roland MC101... basic setup... the TR8S transmit the midi in using the midi out as midi thru. easy one.

then i show the config i have on the SP, quite basic as well. they i press play and start apparently ok but it is drifting a bit anyway but subtle... then i stop, press stop several times in order to eliminate possible tails then press play again and it is totally out of syncro.. then try a couple of times again and it is totally randomic... but always drifting more or less amount, but always drifting... not an accurate midi clock outs from the SP

last but not least, i disconnect Midi cable from the midi in in the TR8S and press play and send a super accurate clock to the MC101... but taking out the Toraiz of the equation...

in the SP there is just two samples sounding at the time, one is a kick (not looped, just put in the steps, basic 4/4 1-5-9-13 steps) and an ambience 4 bars sample looped on step 1, with time stretch. then at the TR8S just a kick, clap and hihat and in the MC101 a warped loop that works perfect in time when receives the clock from the TR8S without the Toraiz, and a drum set with internal sounds, a basic 4/4 pattern as well. tempo 127 but it is the same behavior regardless the tempo.

i tried changing project using one made before the update and the results are the same....

anyway it would be great if the misters at Pioneer would have any minute of time to answer their users... :( totally disappointed here and thinking about to sell the unit, no matter the price.

Hi Fernando,

I've been thinking about your issue - sorry to hear about it!... It's also making me concerned about upgrading firmware (of course!).

I've watched your vid many times... not familiar with all the new settings in the settings menu (I'm still on ancient 1.3 firmware), but it appears that everything is set up properly.  I like that style of tune btw :)

I hope I'm not wasting your time; as it appears you know what you're doing... But I do slightly wonder if there's a screwy extra clock somewhere?  That sort of issue seems like something I've encountered on various units of the years, almost always due to there being two or more clocks accidentally sending at the same time.

Is it possible that the SP16 sends clock to the first aira; which then goes out through the unit (like a THRU setting) AND the aira is also trying to send it's own clock (like an OUT setting). I think I read in 707 manual "soft thru" options that may allow this to occur...

What is the 707 set on? Auto or Midi in for sync? (I don't own a 707, but had a quick look at the manual)... Could it be that the 707 is recieving midi start stop; but not clock?? Strangely it seems that the 707 has DIFFERENT settings for these two (one setting is "MIDI Sync" (for clock only) and the other is "RX Start Stop" for start/stop (why they're separate confuses me... but that could make sense for why start stop makes the tune out-of-time sometimes and in-time others... with two different clocks (707 always running; SP16 starting and stopping when you hit play/stop; both starting at bar 1 beat 1 when you hit play); you'd ALWAYS be up to a 16th of a bar out (if both were set to the same tempo)... or something like that... sometimes close; sometimes in time; sometimes out of time).

Have you tried SP16 clock on any other units (to fully rule out the Roland gear settings?); or just straight into the 101?

I guess: "did this exact setup work perfectly before the update?" is probably the only question I should ask though!!

Sorry if I've wasted your time!... Just trying to help...........

hi Jonathan! thanks a lot for your reply and comments :) 

you are right, the MC101 and 707 have some different kind of setting regarding MIDI, in one hand they need to set the Sync type (MIDI, Auto, Internal) and then there are other parameter called RX and TX, for the RX (Receive Mode) you need to set also to enable to receive Start/Stop... so if you do not enable this option the Sync is present but there is no way to receive Start/Stop. i even tested to receive Sync and then give the play 'manually' but it is crazy... so you need to get both options activated (Sync in Midi or Auto) and RX on.

all that said, i just tested the Toraiz midi out sync with an Elektron Digitone... it receives clock with a drift variation... i.e. i play in the Toraiz a pattern set at 127 bpm and the Digitone receives every bar in a different bpm... start at 126.7 then 126.8-9 then 127.1 until 127.3 or so... then if i press stop (twice in order to discard possible sample tails, etc) then re-start randomicly in 127.8 or 127.6 or similar, then goes down to 126.7 or 126.8 so the behavior is completely erratic.

however, Digitone seems to 'accomodate' the beats in some way making not so noticeable as in the Roland MC101, i guess Elektron developed the sync stuff with a bit more 'swing' and Roland needs to receive just exact values.

anyway it is the Toraiz who has the blame here... :(

testing it with the DIgitone, since it accomodates the drift the sync is more acceptable, but... the problem starts again when you change scenes on the fly, basic for my live sets... then we start again to miss the sync in full.

so no solution at the moment, and Pioneer DJ does not reply.... so i recommend you not to update !!! 

and Pioneer, if possible to reply me it would be perfect.... ;) 

Ahhh - a shame it didn't seem to work! :(...

BTW - I recall seeing clock drift a lot in the past (like what the digitone is presenting)... but yes, that seems to still be annoying (and I can't actually remember if the clock drift I've seen like that was "common"; "a problem"; or "just fine and not a problem" haha... so, yeah... can't help....

Hmm... well... good luck dude!... I hope you can solve the issue!!

Hi again... So yeah, I'm intrigued still --> I've just gone home to test FW1.3 as master for my digitakt; and that sounds perfect, but yeah - also shows the BPM swinging. I do recall this though from other units over the years; and wonder if it's part of the digitone just calcultaing the values on the fly (like maybe the clock is quite steady; but it's guessing the tempo for every PPQ it recieves on-the-fly... it's just recieving an electronic pulse after-all, and the slave then needs to read that and calculate what it is).

Or maybe the SP clock is sloppy; but the elektron gear is just really good at keeping up??... I certainly over the years have ridden the pitch slider on vinyl right through mixes in a similar fashion, and it doesn't sound terrible; so maybe I'm not noticing the up-down tempo shifts??... I'll try to do a recording into a DAW at some point to check timing for interest.

Either way, I guess what I'm saying is that my FW 1.3 is also showing tempo swings on an Elektron unit (124 on SP16 shows up as somewhere between 123.7-124.3). It sounds DEAN-ON time though... much much better than SP16 as slave to digitakt. So that aspet of the issue may be something that was always there (not just 1.6). I'm NOT having the timing going off when I change scenes though... it still locks up pretty solid... so something seems wrong there your unit (or FW 1.6).

I'm kind of hoping still that there's a setting or firmware issue in the MC707 that's to blame (and that it's an easy fix for you, as Pioneer help seems a little slow hey...); but it seems like you've checked the main settings on MC... so yeah, still not sure. Seems like the MC707 gets a dodgy start message to me (the units seems to be out-of-time, but consistently out once it starts to play - yes sure; the amount it's out of time changes each time you hit play; but once that message is recieved it is then locking to tempo but it STARTED at the wrong time... so that sounds like the start message is either being sent dodgy from the SP; OR it's being recieved dodgy by the MC)...

Have you tried sequencing the stop/start on the MC from the digitone?? If that works perfectly, then I'm hands down agreed that it's the SP16!!

Hi mate --> Last time I'll bug you haha.. But just wanted to keep you (and other people who may read this) updated on what I'm experiencing...

I just updated to 1.6 --> I'm having no sync or start/stop issues at my end at all (still to digitakt).  It's really locked in tight.

So yeah - not sure whats wrong in your setup, but I'd just keep trouble shooting the MC gear... if other units (e.g. the digitone) send a start stop to MC with no issues, then you're toraiz is screwed up - if it's in warranty, you could sned it back. If it's not, you could perhaps get a Pioneer tech at a service centre somewhere to fix it?

Good luck!...

hey there! thanks for your help and support. yes, i've tried mc101 to Digitone and viceversa and runs smooth. also tried tr8s to mc101 and to Digitone and all works perfect. even tried with an Octatrack and everything is again smooth. but when the SP16 enters into the equation, the drift starts... :( 

before 1.6 everything seemed to be ok. i've also tried to run the test mode for doing a factory reset and when i go into page12 on test mode (intended to be the right action) then apply the factory reset, it seems that nothing happens. i've read at Muff Wiggler forum that other users had the same behavior trying to make factory resets, nothing happened...

i've even tried to start a new project without efx and only one sample (a kick) then made a classic 4/4 beat trigging 1-5-9-13 super basic stuff no time-stretching and still erratic behaviors...

the unit it is not in warranty anymore, so i think i will contact the service centre, but honestly expected some reply from @pioneerdj stuff ;) 

Ah damn Fernando... That sucks dude. I was really hoping that it was a setting on another unit. Ive in the past unwired half my studio for an issue that ended up being unrelated to wiring (haha... that sucked... it was a simple setting in my converters I think... something like that). But yeah... seems Sp16 has gone bad on you :(

Not sure how pioneer support works, but (if you can) email them directly and raise a support ticket... More reliable than a forum...

Good luck - hope things work out for you.