djm900 bpm readout - does not work as advertised

Kevin, in the video you posted with the Adele track, the mixer is doing exactly what is expected -- the track initially has no beat so the mixer can't pick it up.  Once the beat kicks in, you quickly see the mixer jump to 128, matching the CDJ.

Thank you for confirming Pulse - this is the answer I was looking for (well, I was hoping it would be a different answer but at least I now know for sure) - just so Im sure - the behavior in the adele video is how the djm900 is supposed to handle beat detection?

Seems a bit useless if one would ever expect to use the djm900's midi clock for sync'ing multiple systems.  Unless you have a perfectly steady beat track, midi clock sync coming from the nexus is impossible without the sound going way out of wack in the output.  Am I missing something here?  Or is my assessment fair?  You see what happens in the midi sync (djm900 master, traktor slave) video, right?  This just doesnt seem right but if thats how it functions, it is what it is.

Kevin, sorry if there was any misunderstanding -- there are two different issues currently being tracked with the BPM on the 900nexus.

Yes, the BPM detection as shown in that video is correct.  Because there is no beat, the mixer can't measure an accurate BPM.  If you were to use Rekordbox prepared tracks and link the mixer to the player(s), the beat grid data would be read from the track and provide an accurate BPM display on the mixer regardless of the audio passage.

BPM MIDI data is normal to send slightly erratic data, as outlined and measured in a  thread here.

No problem and I apologize if I came across as rude..

So for a midi sync - one would need to use TAP and then they'd have the minor bpm fluctuation (which you are correct - +/- .2 bpm is common and doesnt have much impact).  Auto bpm detection shouldnt really be used with midi sync because you could have huge fluctuations depending on your tracks. 

Suggestions for future firmware:

1. allow midi sync from external apps (like using traktors midi clock)

2. handle the auto bpm detection a bit differently - more like the way cdjs and the older djms handled it - i.e. so you get a more constant (albeit potentially less accurate bpm).

Having these 2 features would pretty much make it flexible enough to deal with 95% of users setups.

thnx

Well, given the fact the players are now sending beatgrid sync data to the mixer, it's always possible that in future models the mixer (and thus the players) would also be able to receive BPM data from software in order to sync that way as well... but I don't think we'll see that happen in the current hardware even with future firmware updates.

The songs I gave you have enough beat or structure to calculate bpm so the songs are not a problem, its the djm 900

@michel > Please post in your own thread.

Michel - pulse already confirmed that djm900 will not hold a bpm thru unstructured parts of a track. So pretty much any song that has any breaks from drums will cause the bpm readout/clock to blink. Disappointing but at least its confirmed.. Im pretty surprised by this to be honest as ive never seen a mixer do this. Djm700 did not do this even..

I've owned Pioneer mixers since 1995 and that is exactly how EVERY one of them has performed in the last 16 years; no constant input, no ability to measure.

my 700 never blinked as much as the 900.. it would flash now + again but if a track went into a beatless breakdown for 10-15 secs, it would hold the previous count.. i cant remember how long it would take but it was much much longer than the 900.

Pulse, how do u workaround midi sync?  r u using ableton?  traktor?  whats ur solution for getting an outside system sync'ed with the djm900 (assuming u use the 900).  I assume ud agree that u cannot use the djm as the clock source for the software to pull from, right? 

I cant imagine Im the first one to ever encounter this.. how in the world are people midi sync'ing with this?  The only solution I could find was to use TAP.  Maybe thats the workaround..

I don't use it all the time but any time I have, I know to press the TAP button once to lock the BPM as my sets rarely wander from that -- and if they do, I would be playing from a CD / USB source on the CDJ at that time anyhow so it doesn't matter if I would then need to reset the BPM via MIDI by allowing it to read again.

Pulse, Is this being looked into improved? Every time I use serato instead of RB, the auto BPM rarely works, it just sits there blinking even with a constant good beat, I had tracks at about 128, then went up to about 133 and the bpm display just blinks, I had yo take the effect s channel selector and go off the channel and back to it for it to read, Had to do this all night, it ever noticed a changing bpm, just blinks

They just tell you live with it...! I don't think they are working on this, to busy bringing out new stuff to sell us!

I can't believe that michael, They have to work on this, For 4 hours straight last night I never felt comfortable with the bpm readout,  I usually can just enable an effect and now it will be on on the DJM800, the 900 is never correct, Constantly flashing and reading old bpm's until I take the knob for the effect off and on the desired channel for it to read. If I get time later today, I will shoot a quick video in case Pioneer needs more confirmation on how off it is

Just look at my topics. The problem with the bpm topic's started a long time ago. nothing solved since than.

http://forums.pioneerdj.com/entries/20577887-djm-900-auto-bpm-not-accurate-like-djm-800 (october)

http://forums.pioneerdj.com/entries/20733292-djm-900-auto-bpm-not-accurate-like-djm-800-what-about-this-topic (december)

well thats a good sign, hopefully we will see an update soon

From Pulse lets then a month ago in the October thread:

FYI: The engineers are working on improving the BPM readout.  We will post any updates we receive however it may not be to this thread.

Just a question for you -- what channel was selected on your effects knob?

the channel i need to have read the bpm, in my case, I use channels 1 and 2. If channel 1 is playing out loud and selected on the effects channel selector, the bpm is often blinking with the wrong bpm, i then have to throw the effects selector knob to like 3 or 4 and then back to 1 and it will immediately calculate the proper bpm

I can't even test mine right now -- it's in Miami!  I'll flag this again for the engineers.

sounds good pulse, thx!

I think I figured this all out, now the engineers just have to fix it

Pulse, you should pass my video on to the engineers, if this doesn't prove the bpm is a mess, nothing will

1. Put serato into channel 4, bpm works pretty close to perfect even when changing bpm on the CDJ

2. Switched serato to channel 3 , same results as channel 4, works great

3. switched serato to channel 2, never syncs up the bpm no matter what I try

4. Switched serato to channel 1, just blinks 128bpm, never changes even when I move the cdj pitch, BUT, Whats even more weird is that when i switch the channel on the effects switcher to "3", it reads the bpm from channel 1, you can even see when I move the cdj pitch again and go to 1 then back to 3, it even reads the new cdj pitch. This is really really weird.

The best part of all of it is!!!

If you unplug the mixers ethernet and it is "unlinked", every channel works fine....

It seems that whatever decks are "linked" to whatever number (in the videos case, 1 and 2) on the mixer, it screws with the auto bpm.  the minute i unplug the ethernet, all works fine. To prove this out I changed the cdj's to be deck 3 and 4 in the menu, linked it all up and again when using serato, now 3 and 4 bpm was a mess and 1 and 2 were perfect

video: http://youtu.be/mcB5DZy44hI

I don't know if it contributes to the problem, but have you tried the same thing with the channel volume up?

Yes, same results.

Hey all, the engineers investigated the issue and the comments and here's what they had to say:

When CDJ and DJM-900nexus is connected via LINK and either DIGITAL, CD/LINE or LINE is selected by the selector switch of DJM-900nexus, BPM counter of Beat FX displays the BPM value obtained from CDJ via LINK.

Normally, BPM value obtained from CDJ should be used only when CDJ is selected by the selector switch. However, as DJM-900nexus does not have a function to detect which terminal an audio cable is plugged in to connect CDJ via LINK, we decided to choose the current way.

Please try the following three workarounds: 

　1. Disconnect LINK cable on the CDJ side. 

　2. Plug other devices into other channels than the one where CDJ is plugged. 

　3. Use TAP mode to input BPM manually instead of AUTO mode.

wow that kinda stinks, So if I have RB and Serato on channel 1 and 2, I am forced to either manually tap the beat or disconnect the cat5 cables when mixing serato? They cant have the bpm read what channel you have selected on the input selector knob? it shouldnt be detecting what is actually plugged in anyway, it should be detecting whatever sound is coming out of the channel whether it's cd/line or digital. I think they just realized they made a boo boo on where the bpm reads from.  I guess I have to use serato on 3&4 and RB on 1&2 for now. Maybe in a fw update they can have this all make sense because most people clubs are wiring up all 4 decks via cat5 so now if a serato dj comes in, the bpm will not work unless they know to disconnect the link cable which I am sure the sound guys will love :)

They're investigating work-arounds for it, but it makes sense.

cool, thx for the info Pulse

No way Pioneer!

"3. Use TAP mode to input BPM manually instead of AUTO mode."

this is not the way to go!!!

This should work with auto bpm, and not a prehistoric way like unplugging and tapping buttons.....

One would think there would be a bit more appreciation on the provision of this information...

no offense to the engineers Pulse, But what they responded to you to tell us is pretty much exactly what I have found and we have already been doing to work around the issue