Camelot Key System PLEASE

Oh this has only been asked 200 times before!

I bet it has Frederique and apparently due to this request being made so many times but Pioneer not following up on it, makes me wonder why Pioneer does not support it.

Apparently there is a large base for it. Catering to your users is something that is important. Placing yourself above your users "  We Know Best Attitude "  is just not done.

So come on Pioneer, make it happen !

wonder if it has anything to do with license costs or whatever.

It might although the guys at MixedInKey developed the algorithm and are more then willing to cooperate with Pioneer on this.  IN MiK there is a statement from them, see below.


So it's up to Pioneer to open some " doors". here.

They say :

How much would you, the user, be willing to pay for that feature to be added to rekordbox?

Well Pulse, thanks for responding.

I appreciatie you looking into this. 

I would like to advise you to first connect with Yakov at Harmonic-Mixing.com and talk to him about obtaining a license to use the Camelot system.  It would then be easier for Pioneer to see how much licensing would cost. I am guessing that it would be less then you expect, especially as both parties would benefit from the cooperation.

So e-mail Yakov, he's a very nice guy.

Maybe they could build you a plugin for it. I don't know, I am no programmer.

Yet wether the notation reads  Sharps or flats or The Camelot Notation 8B or 9A, in the end for the database it doesn't matter what value is stored in there. Even for the comparing section in the players that show green keys for compatible tracks, it wouldn't matter in the end if it compares E# with E# or 9 with 9.

Seeing it's been requested so many times. I would vouch for a free upgrade. It will allow you to sell more copies of the software and the products that use it so in the end you will not lose money on it, but gain money on this.

Keep in mind, I am only a user of your hardware that didn't even get a licensing code with his brand new XDJ-700's !  :(

Ultimately I would probably be willing to pay for such a feature, but frankly I feel that Pioneer should take those costs and not it's users. It's a system that most DJ's use exclusively (it's a defacto standard I feel), and comparing prices of RBDJ to Traktor, RBDJ is already 50% more expensive.

@Peter > Yakov and I are friends, and I know he and our teams in Japan have discussed this in past, but were unable to reach an agreement for licensing, so it's not a matter of reaching out.

My question to you is not what you think we should pay or what he should charge but rather, if it were available as a separate plus-pack, what $ amount do you feel would be a reasonable addition for users to pay for Camelot notation in rekordbox?

@Frederique > It's not a question of their cost vs. our cost.

Hi Pulse.

Great to hear you and Yakov are friends ;)

Seeing your comment it seems to me it's an issue of the amount payable to Yakov and his company. I cannot be of influence there , as you will understand.

As for the added costs. I find it hard to put an amount on this feature. I guess somewhere around 20 to 30 Euro for a permanent license / plug-in/ whatever.
But in that case the various options that MiK offers , including setting cue points and such, should also be integrated. 

When integrating, you may even want to use the Camelot coloring as well in the display of the media players. Currently the players show a green Key when a song is compatible with what's playing. When using the Camelot coloring, the keys could all have these colors.

But let's also turn the question around at you ( Pioneer) , what costs would Pioneer feel would be appropriate to charge for such a much requested add-on ? 

Hopefully this will all lead to something useable for the community, on both ends ;)

Cheers,

Peter

@Peter > I don't know what it should cost, and that's why I'm asking what end-users feel would be reasonable. You're certainly welcome to say "NOTHING, YOU CHEEKY BASTARDS!" lol Personally, I'd love to see it added for free, but in a reasonable world, I also understand business costs and wouldn't be opposed to adding it as a $4.99 plugin. I mean, really, if I think about how much I've spent on iOS apps over the years, that's peanuts.

Yes, I'd hope to have coloured keys, ala Serato DJ - that makes it a breeze to identify them visually in a flash.

@Pulse.

I think 4,99 or anything along those lines would be a reasonable amount to pay for the feature.

As long as it's not a monthly subscription ;)

So get your tables into gear, wake up Jeroen and start on this...I'll personally hand you a " fiver" when you've done it  !  Deal ?

lol - if they made it a subscription feature, I'd personally swim to Japan and ask them to change it.

If it's a one time fee of $5 I'm down for Rekordbox to support and and have a related playlist detect them. 

Or go as far as having Pioneer develop their own like NI did. 

Hello Everyone, 

Best Pioneer Develop their own (but that may take time)

Otherwise I am prepared to PAY for the CAMELOT once of fee $30.

@Jorge > Thanks for the feedback!

I think the simplest solution would be to add an option in the preferences to replace the keys used in rekordbox with the users choice i.e. A = 4D, Ab = 9D, or A = 11B etc. The user could then type in anything they wanted to use in place of the default keys and the software wouldn't need to be changed at all.

That's a great idea

@Stacy > That's not the problem ... you can do that currently. The problem is with licensing the ability to use the Camelot notation within our software.

I know Pulse, that is why I made that suggestion. If the user is putting the keys in themselves there is no licensing issue since the software is using the users key choices, if that happens to be Camelot keys then that's on the user not the software developer. You also cannot currently do that, you can add your own keys elsewhere like the comment tag, but what I suggested was a section in the preferences that lets you type in your own replacement for each key. It could even be all the keys typed in with comma separation such as 11B, 4B, 1A, 8A, 1B, or something other than Camelot like 0, 1, 2, 3...

@Stacy > Right, but then we can't even provide the ability to sort them as Camelot keys, or we're being complicit to its use.

@Pulse > I would assume the current sorting is lexical which will sort that just fine as is. If not you could always add another option below the custom keys option for "Key Sort Method" and the user could select alphanumeric or numeric or whatever else.

i would pay $10 for permanent add on..Currently as a new user to rekodboxdj I took on the agonizing task of identifying the keys and matching them to Camelot key system and changing manually.. The process is taking forever and unfortunately it does not display on my ddj 1000 after changing the keys to camelot model 

> "You're certainly welcome to say "NOTHING, YOU CHEEKY BASTARDS!" lol"

lol

but now, seriously... Pioneer is the leader; Pioneer has the most expensive gear in the world (CDJ-TOUR1, etc). Pioneer dominates the club gear. Pioneer is the standard reference. Pioneer sells rekordbox DJ.

Now that I brushed your ego hopefully enough: I find disappointing that Pioneer just does't license and pay such trivially basic technology.

Camelot system is like the alphabet - so basic that anything else would be a blatant rights infraction.

<ironic>

For example, Let me give you "different" system for you right now, and I promise this is royalty-free, public domain for file:

major keys: A^, B^, C^, D^, D^, E^, F^, G^, H^, I^, J^, L^

minor keys: Av, Bv, Cv, Dv, Dv, Ev, Fv, Gv, Hv, Iv, Jv, Lv

</ironic>

I would be willing to pay 20. I made the switch from Serato to rekordbox about a month ago for the ddj 1000 and I love the software. Only con is not having Camelot key.

@perdo > I know, but as silly as it sounds, that's how patents work - protecting an idea, no matter how simple.

Well actually it's not quite protecting the idea... It's more protecting the notation. Because Camelot notation *IS* a same way of expressing the SAME key that RB analyses in archaic system. Only problem is that one is more readable than the other.  It just needs more readability, so why not say 1A is A+, 2A = B+, 3A=C+... and 1B is A-, 2B = B- ... Anyone that can read the alfabet knows that a D+ can be mixed with a D- or C+ or E+ .. I don't see the problem because RB is analysing keys correctly? If you would be able to read the current RB keys and interprete them correctly, the systems works. It's just not handy. Unless...... our friend Yakov really has patented the idea of using another notation, and no one else is allowed to use ANY other notation on the original key system. So Yakov, that patent... money doesn't make happiness my friend, friendship does :p Imagine how much RB-friends you would get :p :p :p 

Regardless of the Camelot Notation being patented ...or not...I still find the question from Pioneer about how much we would be willing to pay for it, quite curious. As this topic evolves it is only now that we learn that Yakov has " patented " this notation ? If so, then a license is usually in order and that's where the sales people get together and do their thing to create a license situation. So prior to that happening I still do not see the reason to first go and ask how much we would be willing to pay extra ? 

On a second note, I agree with various replies here that not having this notation integrated is plain silly.  

Knowing Yakov I cannot imagine he would be so reluctant to sell a license to Pioneer, in whatever form.

@Christophe  lol, I like your notation, but now it seems you are infringing MY idea (lol)

@Pulse I'm very familiar with patents - I'm the main author of one.

Now seriously, can Pioneer just fix this in any way? ANY way at all? 

@Pedro ... My {A+ A-} notation is patented. I'd be so happy to sell it exclusively to Pioneer, Not to Serato nor Traktor :p 

Can someone share a patent number or link, where actually 'notation' is stated to be a subject to this patent?

By the way, I've created a small application converting key stored in MP3's ID3v2 tags: https://key-converter.pro/

It's free, so there might be bugs.

If changing one string to another in MP3s' tags is against the law or it's patented, please also let me know.