[SOLVED] cdj 2000 audio formats

@jambapark > I use .wavs and .mp3s without any issues. How are you using Rekordbox? Directly connected to your CDJs or exporting to USB / SD card?

i export my tracks from rekordbox to an sd or usb device but when i mix two tracks the same bpm 0.00% pitch they stay good in time but when i mix two tracks with different bpm s 123 two 125 and i pitch the slower track to 125 + 1.60% they don t stay in time for then seconds and then i have make  corrections and when i set an quantize loop 8 or 16 beat loops then stay only for 5 seconds in time why i have this problems and are this  the cdj 2000 (are they not so precise?)or is the audio format  what i use the problem?

@jambapark > 123.xx BPM + 1.6% = 124.968BPM which obviously, is very close, but not equal to 125BPM.

As we've always stated, the BPM display is a guide; you'll still have to make adjustments based on what you hear.

Any CD Player device will have a digital pitch control which only offers a finite level of precision.  In the case of Pioneer, the best precision we can attain is to the 0.02% increment (on 6% range setting).  By nature of this fact, a CD Player will require more manual adjustments than a vinyl turntable (in theory) because of the limitations of digital vs. analog pitch control.

Secondly, it is entirely possible that the tracks you are attempting to mix have a slightly variable tempo.  I come across music like this fairly frequently, where as the track progresses, the BPM may change.  For example, a track might start out at 125.00 BPM, but by the end of the track it has slowed to 124.97 BPM.  I have confirmed that this does happen sometimes, and my solution has been to process these tracks in Ableton Live.  I warp the track to a constant tempo and then render it to a new audio file which has a perfectly stable BPM.

This does not happen all the time, but I promise you that I do come across tracks which exhibit this kind of behavior.  It drove me nuts until I figured out what was happening.  You might want to inspect your tracks for unstable tempo.  To check for this, do the following:

1.  Load new track in Rekordbox and analyze with Normal mode.

2.  Open the grid adjustments drop-down arrow so that you can see the blue beat grid on the waveform.

3.  Find the first down beat of the track and make sure the blue beat grid is aligned to it correctly.  There is a metronome feature which you can use to hear the beatmatching of the grid to the beats of the music.  I use this as a fine-tuning guide in combination with the visual marker.

4.  Once you have lined up the first beat, you need to skip ahead to the middle of the track and check that metronome and see if it is still on-beat.  If it is one beat, then click ahead to the end part of the track and check again.  If the grid is not on beat when you skip ahead in the track, then you should use the tempo adjustment buttons to stretch or squeeze the blue grid either wider or tighter to make it line up to the beats again.  Once you have lined up the blue grid, skip ahead to a future point in the track and see if the tempo drifts off beat again.  If it is still on beat, then you have a track with stable tempo.  But if it goes off again, you will know that the track is changing tempo over time.

If you get to the end of step 4 and you have a track which seems to drift in tempo over time, then you have 2 choices for how to handle this situation.

Choice 1  -  Use Rekordbox to make incremental adjustments to the tempo at several points in the track.  There is a button on the grid adjustment section which will allow you to freeze the grid for all points BEFORE that point, and then allow adjustments only to later portions of the track.  So you can use this feature to line up the beat grid on the first part of the track, and then go to the next part and adjust the beats again until they line up, then lock down another beat marker and adjust some more after that..... until you have all the blue beat markers lined up.  If you do this, just keep in mind that Rekordbox is not changing the tempo of the track.  It is just changing how to BPM display shows the tempo rate.  So as you plat your track on the CDJ, you will see the BPM display change the tempo reading as the track plays over time.

Choice 2  -  Use software like Ableton Live (or any production suite which can change the tempo of the music) to create a copy of your music file with a constant BPM.  By doing this, you will be fixing the errors in the tempo and there will be no need to make incremental adjustments to the blue grid in Rekordbox.  Once you have loaded the new audio file, the blue grid should line up perfectly without needing any of those Stretch or Squeeze adjustments to the blue grid.  This means that when you play your music on the CDJ, the BPM display will stay constant throughout the track.... and in theory, you should need fewer platter adjustments.  (Fewer, but you will probably still need to correct some)  Like I said above, the CDJ players have digital pitch controls which cannot always give you perfect beatmatching with zero need for corrections.  There will almost always be a need to correct some, especially if you have a long-mix style.

@ gavin  sorry i mean i allways look that the bpm is 123.0 bpm  pitch range 0.00% and the other track 123.0 bpm pitch down from 124 bpm - 0.80% and so i mix my set but when i go and want to mix 2 tracks with 123.0 bpm and 125.0 bpm pitch the faster track at 123.0 bpm pitch range -1.60% i need to make few more corrections then with 1 bpm different  i play tech house and deep house and i like to make very long transitions but  i don t like when i hear in my recorded set allways the correction it sounds very ugly and what i notice that when you make quantize beatloops the track very fast go off beat 

@fuse promote hey thank you for the answer i try this with rekordbox to adjust the beatgrid but in abelton this with the wraping story feels better i wraped my hole playlist in abelton mp3 320 kbps and exported to aiff 24 bit then in rekordbox analysed in normal mode and than to my sd card it feels little bit better but its not perfect  :-) the tracks are warped and on a constant bpm this little bit maybe are the cdj 2000 who drift ? i don t now? and why is the best precision on 6% pitch range 0.02% better where we can go 0.01% 0.02% 0.03% and not 0.02% 0.04% 0.06% maybe with the next cdj 2000 update,i started playing with technics 1210 mk2 and it fell s better  that the tracks who i mixed stay more in time than when i mixed with  the cdj 2000 and the are moderner and more expensive 

@jambapark > Try updating the firmware to the newest version and disabling the Master Tempo.  You should certainly be able to match tempo with 0.02% accuracy for long duration mixes without needing much, if any, pitch bending.  If you don't like hearing the warble of a pitch bend via the jog, consider learning the trick of sliding the pitch fader back and forth.

i have the new update on the cdj 2000 but i don t use the master tempo is it better to mix with master tempo on the master tempo was not usabel be four  

and jet with  the new firmware is it better ?

I have tested Master Tempo with the new firmware and do believe it works better now than on previous firmware versions.

However, I personally do NOT use the Master Tempo feature.  In fact, I have never used Master Tempo on any previous Pioneer CD player.  It's just not a feature that I find useful at all.  I have always noticed over the years that the Master Tempo feature causes distortion to the audio quality when used at the far extreme range of the pitch control.  To me, preserving the audio quality is more important than having the pitch of the music perfectly locked.  I never had this option when I learned to mix on vinyl, so I don't feel like I've lost anything y not using the feature with CDJ players.

i don t mix with master tempo on and i choose only track with  max +2bpm  -2bpm bigger different i notice the cdj can hold the tracks in time for 5 sec. without correction 

@jambapark > I don't want this to sound rude at all, but if 2 tracks fall out of sync after 5 seconds, then they aren't correctly beat matched. Using the BPM readouts should only be used as a reference, and you should always mix with your ears overall. :)

@foster i play with a lot of equipment with technics turntables cdj 1000 etc. I know what s beatmatching is but why are the bpm shows on the cdj 2000 when they not are correct ??? man hey!!!

@ foster Maybe this is in the old cdj 1000 that the bpm writes 125 and is 125.3 . I don t know if you use rekordbox and analyse your files at normal mode that you can get an correct bpm and this is not made only to get a reference :) i never sad that the bom is falls on the cdj 2000 i only sad that when you have beatmatched two tracks they after a time they starts to drift and you have make correction and you can not make cool and creative mixes and for this price that this gear have i am don t fall in love with my 2000

The short answer to the original question in this thread is WAV or AIFF are the best formats to use with the CDJ-2000.  Period.

I just spent nearly an hour testing another forum member's MP3 files which had glitches in them that caused instant trainwrecks when attempting to mix them.  After making copies of those MP3 files and rendering them as AIFF files from Ableton Live, the music mixed perfectly and the glitches were gone.  I don't know what the cause of the problems were with those MP3 files, but I do know for an absolute fact that rendering those files to AIFF solved the problem.

In addition to the above-mentioned glitch issue, I also had my very first CDJ-2000 player freeze up on me while playing one of those MP3 files.  I have always used AIFF or WAV files for many, many years and I had never seen my CDJ-2000s lock up like that.  I am very confident that again it was the fault of the audio file and not the CDJ-2000.

The bottom line is that MP3 files can easily be corrupted or compromised in quality.  My best suggestion for everyone is to use uncompressed audio formats for your DJ music.

@jambapark > +/-2BPM @1.60% means you're using 10% Tempo adjustment, correct?

Which I'm not sure why you use +/-10% when you only ever mix tracks +/-2BPM's apart. The 6% Tempo adjustment would provide you with greater accuracy.

Anyways, I've noticed sometimes it takes an adjustment of +/- 0.10% at the 10% Tempo adjustment in order to change the BPM by 0.1. That being said, just because the BPM's display the same number to the decimal point, doesn't mean they are both exactly the same. Such as what @Gavin mentioned "which obviously, is very close, but not equal".

@jambapark > My apologies about that first part of my last post. I wasn't talking about the same thing. lol I need sleep. ;)

@ foster good night i allways use 6%pitch range @fusepromote i also rendered my mp3 files in ableton( what you are told my)aiff format 24 bit and wraped it at a constant bpm it works better but when you make quantize loops and mix long transition i have to made also view corrections

Can't comment on what's happening with the looping.  I have never used looping on any Pioneer player.  It's not a feature that I have any use for.

@ fuse promote when you wraped your track in abelton why with repitch and not with beats or transien?

There are 2 reasons why I use Repitch mode in Ableton Live when I am warping my full-length tracks:

1.  Repitch mode offers the highest sound quality for all of the warping methods in Ableton Live.

2.  Since I am not trying to drastically change the tempo of the track, then Repitch mode is best suited.  For example, I am only using Live to make a minor correction to an unstable tempo.  I am not trying to take a 105 bpm track and make it 125 bpm.

Beats and Transients modes are not acceptable for warping entire tracks.  Those warping methods are designed for short clips, like a 4 bar loop.  They cause excessive, audible distortion to the sound when used on longer clips or full-length tracks.

Repitch mode is the highest sound quality warp method for Ableton Live, and it is the best to use with a full-length track.

Complex Pro & Complex modes can also be used with full-length tracks.  If you are trying to change the tempo of a track by a large amount, then these two modes will preserve the pitch of the track while adjusting the tempo.  These modes are essentially Live's version of Pioneer Master Tempo button.  If you need to warp a track to a different tempo but want to preserve the pitch of vocals, then use one of these two modes.

I have a bit may be, lame question, but due to the mp3 slow analyzing on CDJ 2000, is there possibility to analyze it in rekordbox on normal/dynamic mode and so mp3 files would be ready when i put on sd/usb in CDJ 2000 player?

Yes, if you analyse files in RekordBox then use its export function to export them to an SD card or USB stick/hard disk, or play them directly from RekordBox using Pro DJ Link, you will get all the information on the CDJ instantly.

sorry for coming a little late here hahaha but Fuse Promote's comments are just exacly what I need to know.

I also realised (the harder way) that CDJs pitch precision was not enough to do a perfect mixing (like you can do with Traktor etc.) (and by perfect I mean differences of bpm bellow 0,009 - like 128,005 mixed with 128,002 - its perfect enough).

I personaly don't like playing with macbook, although knowing a lot about Traktor, I just don't have fun, feel like a noob connecting a lot of stuff on CDJs before playing and don't trust the software enough, it simply crashes and bugs.

I also realised (the harder way again) that I could correct my tracks using Ableton Live. Which is working flawlessly.

But I don't have that much digital-audio knowledge, and thats what I want to know about.

I would like mr. Fuse to do give me some advice about what I am doing, like being my master on it hehehe.... this is what I do:

I download my tracks as MP3 320kbps 32-bit, then Import them to Adobe Audition CS6 to check volumes (99,9% of times everything is perfect, as people who produce know how to master the tracks), then Export them as WAVE 1411kbps 32-bit (cause WAVE works perfect with Ableton), then Import them to Ableton Live 8, check if the BPM is stable (under my precision requirements), if it's not I use Complex warping to do the job, then Export them as WAVE 1411kbps 32-bit again and use Audition to change it to MP3 320kpbs 32-bit again (so it doesnt be like 100MB per track).

I would like to know if it is better to use Re-Pitch instead of Complex, like, when you say Complex is like a "Master Tempo", do you mean it is for the tiny changes of tempo each warp marker does, or for the Big change of tempo when I want a track that is 126.00 turn 128.00 (writing it on the box next to TAP button on the left upper corner)?

And if there is something missing on my "track editing procedure", like if I'm being a noob changing the track back to MP3, or it doesn't matter because it was already MP3 in the beginning?

I have been told to not download MP3, cus it sucks. But I've had no problem with it since ever. Am I taking a risk using it? Is there a way of lowing this risk like using some kind of software to analyze if the file is corrupted or something?

Im interested about this subject, would be great to talk about it with someone that knows a lot about it :D

Thanks in advance!

I think you need to just give up on the MP3 format altogether and use AIFF or WAV.

Don't buy music on MP3 just to convert it to another format and back.  That's retarded, quite frankly.  You should just buy your music on WAV or AIFF and keep it that way.  You'll have less work to do preparing your tracks, and you'll have better sound quality and higher reliability.

The only downside to WAV or AIFF is the larger file size, but that's a rather pointless difference in today's world of large, cheap hard drives.

As for which warp mode to use in Ableton Live....  Repitch is the best sound quality possible when dealing with full-length tracks.  It simply speeds up or slows down the waveform without altering it.  I would use this mode if you do not plan to change the overall tempo oof a track, but are just trying to fix a track with unstable tempo.

Complex mode is good if you want to change the overall tempo of a track while keeping it in the same key.  For example, you have a cool downtempo track that's 108 BPM, but you want to mix it with stuff that's 123 BPM.  You could try to mix them using the Master Tempo feature on the CDJ, but it's not always the best method when working with tracksa of vastly different speeds.  Another way to do this would be to use Ableton Live Complex mode to create a new copy of the downtempo track at a faster tempo.  Ableton will do a better job than the Pioneer CDJ-2000's on-board Master Tempo feature.

Thanks for the answer :)

But I get some of my tracks from free downloads like from soundcloud, and they simply come as MP3. In that ocasions should I still convert them to WAVE or is it pointless?

And about Re-Pitch and Complex, what really is the difference?

I'm trying to optimize every step so I can reach the best possible results.

sorry, didn't see the second comment, thanks for the info :)

Repitch it basically the equivalent of moving the pitch slider on a turntable.  If you speed up, the pitch goes up.  If you speed down, the pitch goes down.  The advantage is that the music file itself is not chopped up or altered other than the speed change.

Complex Mode actually chops up the audio and puts it back together in a way that speeds up or slows down the tempo without changing the key/pitch.  The downside to this method is that it does change the audio, so there's a possibility for distortion (particularly if you are making a dramatic change to the tempo).  But, overall its a good enough setting to use for full tracks.

Just don't use any of the other warp modes, like beats.etc..   They distort the music badly on full tracks.

Thanks a lot Fuse! I needed someone that understands about this to make things clear.

Last question hehehe, unconsidering the quality, is there a difference between MP3 and WAVE when talking about how CDJs read it? Like using MP3s on Ableton is a mess, they simply don't work sometimes. Does it happen someway on CDJs? Like the chances of errors are bigger with MP3s?

I know they have poor quality, but I want to use Rekordbox in a close future (when the bugs, crashes and problems are gone) and there is no way of using WAVE with it.

Thanks again :)

The answer is yes.... MP3 files are not as reliable as WAV or AIFF on the CDJ-2000 players.
The only times I have ever experienced a CDJ-2000 crash has been when loading poor quality MP3 files.

MP3 is an abomination. Seriously, I wish Pioneer would just stop supporting the format altogether.
There is no excuse for MP3 to exist anymore.

What do you mean there is no way to use WAV with Rekordbox?

I have been using WAV on Rekordbox since the beginning.

I use AIFF now, admittedly..... Bt that's essentially e as,e thing as WAV, just the Apple version and it can hold tags/art.