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Still having drifting problems!

Ok so after seeing one more topic posted on this forum vanish because it had too many persons talking about the same subject (topic was posted by Johnboy i think) I went desperate and decided to make a last try to erase any possible causes of the drifting on my cdjs (since so many people also say they just dont have it). It's really annoying having to fix the beatmatching all the time specially when I like to make long transitions and explore all my creativity while mixing. That not to mention I have to fix the pitch also everytime i set a 8 beat loop. All with quantized on tracks analized on normal mode and in a mypassport hd without any power saving turn on. 

Ok back to the desperate try: I bought a HD SSD 128Giga made by OCZ - Enyo model with USB 3 interface. Worked great the feedback is fast (really cant see much difference from mypassport feedback though) and it gives me a  plus that I dont have to worry about vibrations on some not so good club booths. BUT THE DRIFT IS STILL THERE! THE LOOP PROBLEM IS STILL THERE! So I really have to discard all the possibilities of this problem being caused by the data source! This is a reliable brand and its speed is even faster than the cjds are able to read. No sleep mode on. All files are .wav's bought from websites like traxsource and stompy. I don't use a single mp3 file! I CAN STILL ALSO SEE MY PITCH CHANGING BY ITSELF SOMETIMES AND ITS UNBELIVABLE IT DOES IT! I keep spending cash on trying to make this right and trying to erase any shadow of a doubt of this being something wrong on my end but IT'S NOT!  There is nothing else I can do but hoping Pioneer people will treat this matter seriously and won't delete this post cause, like I said before, Ive been even spending cash with more gear I wasnt supposed to be buying right now just to be sure there's nothing wrong with the data source!

This is really frustrating and I seriously expect some help instead of censorship from Pioneer moderators and engineer team.

Again, all my tracks are wav, I fix grid for all them, they are all previously analized in rekordbox in normal mode. I play with quantize on. All I am asking here is your comprehension and respect for a Pioneer customer! I bought this gear trusting on Pioneers perfection and this is just too much trouble to face day after day and after 5 MONTHS after the last firmware release having not a single word on what will or even if it will be done about all this!

Why the posts that mention the matter are just deleted?

The MT problem was also denied over and over once upon a time so like many others also were. It's time to realize we are here trying to contribute with the solutions for the cdjs behaviour and not to just say bad words about the product WE spent so much money on! I tested in many ways and again I put my small contribution here: it was NOT the hd cause it simply behaves the same with the SSD! Anything else I should check? Any ideas????

Stroboscope

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@ Stroboscope   --  we will await the video.  I agree this is all pretty difficult to isolate if we cannot recreate the issue.

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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i don't for 1 second think you're making it up stroboscope - i just want to help you find a solution as much as anyone now that the files are deemed ok. there's still some possibilities for 'user error' but i think there is also the possibility that your players might have a fault too.

Phil 0 voti
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@ Fuse : I know you already did a lot mate but would it be possible to up the track you made the test with so i can reproduce it here too??

Stroboscope 0 voti
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Same for me I can not reproduce the problem. After  5 min 1 correction looks acceptable to me. ;-)

DJ Meks 0 voti
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Ok so here is the the video. I will try to make another one about the pitch fixing while mixing and looping but today this one just took all my free time.

Fuse, the process i make all my tracks go through are same you did. The example one I uploaded had the very same grid fixes you did.

I will try to test mixing with your track tomorrow and see what happens. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILj8ThT9cxk&feature=youtu.be

Stroboscope 0 voti
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@ Stroboscope   It looked like you have Quantize ON for Player 1, and Quantize OFF for Player 2, correct?

What happens if Quantize in ON for both players?

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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as fuse promote says, Quantize needs to be switched ON in the menu of BOTH players. without it, your second player isn't receiving the beatgrid info from rekordbox and is using the (less accurate) BPM detection from the player itself. I just did a quick experiment with quantize OFF on my player 2 and my loops drifted out of time too, as i would expect.

Phil 0 voti
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Fuse, what happens if i have both players with quantize on is what me and other guys described: loops drift unless i correct the pitch a lil bit (generally 0.02% up or down is enough). But if the pitch is not fixed while looping then you have to work the jog ring all the time to bring the loop back to place. I can shoot a video about that behaviour too.

Phil, I dont remember having problems with cdjs 1000 loops and they dont have quantize right?

Stroboscope 0 voti
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I can't bear to watch anymore, this is INSANE.  I'm pretty sure I just saw CDJ-1000 looping championed over CDJ-2000 QUANTIZED looping?  Stroboscope, you don't remember having the trouble, because you probably didn't use the loops in anger on a CDJ-1000.  People generally didn't.  To achieve pin-point loop accurracy on a 1000, and NOT have to adjust it is, in a few very simple words, very VERY *VERY* difficult.  I watched Morillo in Pacha in 2008 loop the crap out of a set of 1000s - why was I totally interested in what he was doing and how he was doing it?  Because he was working the loops, constantly, juggling them and adjusting them just to keep them in time before the punters had chance to notice.  When you turn Quantize OFF on a 2000, it essentially becomes a 1000 as far as looping is concerned.

This is what I know and this is FACT.  Give me a set of 1000s and I won't even go near the loops.  It's trainwreck central.  Maybe, just *maybe* you can get away with a bit of vocal looping.  Give me a set of Quantized 2000s and yea, I'll be confident to hit the loop buttons (I never bother with the auto-loop button - I can press one button, count to 4, or any other number at that, and press another button with no difficulty).  I'll be confident that the loop will be snapped to the beat and in time.  I'll also know that, a *slight*, very minor jog adjustment may need to be made.  I don't care about this, because I'm a DJ.  I *know* I can easily perform that minor task in a single occurrance - I'm the only person permitted to touch the decks at that time, it's my job.  What is the issue with this?

What if RekordBox hasn't aligned the beatgrid properly?  That's what will cause your quantized loops to fall down.  Ok, that's a bit of an annoyance, but it's still the DJs fault if they don't check their music and fix any issues and make sure everything is in perfect form for a perfect performance.

When I mix on my 2000s, I regularly marvel at all of the quantized features.  It makes it SO easy for things to sound incredible.  Things that just weren't possible on the previous generation of players.  But then I'm usually saddened too, as we're all just becoming a bunch of push-button DJs who're having their skill replaced by technology, the purpose of which is to make us sound amazing, who then slate it raw because we can't rely on it to do 100% of our job as good as we used to be able to.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  If you want your kit to take your skill and do your work, go grab a Fisher Price USB controller and press the SYNC button.  Problem solved.

Mark90 0 voti
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@ Mark: 1st of all the discussion and everything else has been going in a higher level than your last answer Mark. And YES if you compare 1ks with 2ks the first ones are pretty much superior in 2 aspects:

1- turn off your quantize feature and you will see that 1ks loops were much more tight than 2ks one

2- MT (even after the FW update that improved 2ks on that matter) was much more thigh on 1ks than on 2ks

I guess a lot of other djs that give their oppinion here POLITELY agree with that.

Maybe you didn't read but the very fist steps I take on ALL my tracks is to align and fix the grid just like Fuse shown on his video. The only thing I wanted here was to try to help finding out the reason for drifting matters. If quantized is set on both cjds, the grid if fixed properly, then they shouldnt drift! I don't see loops drifing on some crap syncing sofwares like you said. Is IS IT AN ADVANTAGE TO HAVE CDJS BEHAVING LIKE THAT? Then, my friend Mark, you should go back to firmwares like the ones with MT problems so you can show your skills on fixing tracks during your whole mix. Im pretty sure you were much more happy with them! Or not?

Stroboscope 0 voti
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No, with quantize off, looping is just looping on both the 1000s and 2000s - you press the button, that's where the loop points are set.  It seems pointless to me in even discussing or comparing that.

MT - who mentioned MT?

I was perfectly polite, if totally frustrated.

I have seen nothing, NOTHING, that suggests quantized loops drift outside of nominal margins.

Your video, with quantize enabled on only one CDJ, seems completely useless to me - other than demonstrating that manual looping is less accurrate, for obvious reasons.  Can you post a video where BOTH CDJs are using quantize, using the loop buttons AND the auto-loop, and show that they fall out of sync?

And finally, is it an advantage to have CDJs behaving like you said?  This I don't know, because mine don't.

And you bring up MT again - you misunderstand the old problem.  MT was an issue because people were adjusting when they didn't have to - they just _thought _they had to, where in fact any adjustment would make the problem worse via the old 'catapulting' effect as seen on old belt driven turntables.  This was down to jitter, not drift.

Mark90 0 voti
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I will make a video about the need to fix the loop with both cdjs with quantize on. Like I said if I dont fix the pitch 0.02% at least the loop drifts. Will post it later.

Sorry if I misunderstood your tone but if you search around the forum you will also see there are also other guys that still think that MT was also better on 1ks. I,  myself, also think loops were tighter on 1ks if you compare them with 2ks with quantize off. Thats what I meant.

Stroboscope 0 voti
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Oh... and will also try to shoot a video also with the track Fuse uploaded and see what happens (thanks for sending it mate!)

Stroboscope 0 voti
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i can understands mark90's frustration, your test proves nothing other than the fact that a RB quantized loop is tighter than a quantized loop using only the CDJ's bulit in BPM detection. 

the fact that you occasionally have to make a slight loop adjustment on two different, manually beatmatched tracks that originally had different speeds, every minute or two is perfectly normal.

here's the acid test, quantize on both players, same track on both players, MT off on both players (to avoid any distracting flanging noise) and tempo reset engaged on both players. hit play at the same time, then hit 4 bar loop at the same time. i just tried 3 or 4 random tracks like this and there is absolutely no sign of the slightest 'drift', even after 10 minutes. if there was even a hint of a timing change you would hear it immediately as you would hear a flange type sound (this is why MT set to off is important in this test) which would let you know a timing change was occurring.

loops that always stay perfectly in time forever, without the slightest nudge, using tracks that are pitched from different original tempos, are only possible using software with the sync function (and even then they need to be accurately beatgridded).

Phil 0 voti
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also stroboscope, you mention in your original post that the tracks seem to change tempo on their own. i think i know what this is too, i have experienced this on all 6 CDJ2000's that i have had in my possession as well as my cdj1000 mk 3's sometimes did this at +/- 6% setting. i think it's to do with slight vibration (bass, finger tapping on the deck etc) making the pitch jump to the next setting. it happens to me every 10 or 20 tracks and is 'normal' if a little annoying. i guess the pitch sensitivity/range of the contacts is almost double the 10% setting. i've never had this happen on 10% setting ever, which is how i came to this conclusion.

Phil 0 voti
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Phil, that's an interesting point about the annoying CDJ-2000 'Twitchy-Pitch'.  I always use +/-6%, and fairly frequently hear a beat *slightly* starting to go out only to find it's moved 0.02%.

In other news, I just spent about 20 minutes looping, cutting, Master Tempoing - all sorts - to a pair of tracks and they never showed any signs of drifting.  I'd love to do a video, I might do, but the likelihood is that I won't.

ALSO, I found that if a beatgrid is mis-aligned, whilst it doesn't affect the CDJs looping ability at all, it absolutely *royally* f**ks up the DJM-2000's quantized effects.  Something to watch out for.

Mark90 0 voti
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I tested again last night.

Loaded the same track on both players.  Track analyzed and beatgrid adjusted in Rekordbox.  LINK'ed to the CDJ-2000s.  Quantize ON both players.  Pitch reset button on.  Master Tempo off.  Hit play together and tracks hold sync perfectly for more than a minute, and then I hit 4 Beat Loop together on both players.  They stay in sync and I leave them for another minute.  No drifting.

Sorry, no video this time.  But the result of my test is that I cannot seem to recreate the issue.

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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i got the problem that rekordbox tells me the file is 128,01 bpm for example althought it's bought from beatport and must be 128,0.

no producer would set the bpm to 128,01... furthermore the metronom is right at the start but in the end of the track it's off by a bit. that tells me that the track really is 128,0 and not 128,01, yet Rekordbox detects it as 128,01...

Fabian Arndt 0 voti
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@ Fabian  -  Rekordbox does not always do a perfect job at beat detection.  In fact, no software program that I'm aware of can do a perfect job at this.

You need to manually adjust the beat grid in Rekordbox so that it aligns at the end of the track.  If you do this, it is highly likely that the BPM display will shift from 128.01 to 128.00.

 

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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and even if it's not a 100 percent accurate.. it's far better then most other solutions or cd player readouts (from automatic bpm detection)

Jack EDM 0 voti
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Agreed.... but once you manually adjust the grid in Rekordbox it gets more accurate.

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