thanks for the update Gavin, Loking forward to the update in a few weeks. Let's see what it brings!
[CLOSED] Lack of CDJ support
Pioneer’s support for the CDJ 2000 Nexus is not fit for purpose.
There, I said it.
There is currently a massive gulf between the requirements of DJs using the supposed flagship CDJs and the ability of the support and development teams to deliver. It’s unacceptable and it needs to be addressed urgently.
I can understand products shipping with flawed firmware. That’s not to say that the CDJ-2000 Nexus shipped in an acceptable state – the product clearly wasn’t adequately tested before it was put on sale, but software is complex, inevitably has bugs and takes time to fix. Eventually we got firmware 1.06 which seemed to make the players stable.
The big problem is with the on-going support we’ve had since version 1.10 was released. Firmware has been shipping with disruptive and/or showstopper bugs, releases have been taking weeks (I believe six weeks and counting since some of the issues in 1.11 were flagged up) with next to no communication from Pioneer. This isn’t acceptable.
These are players that are sold on the basis that they will perform flawlessly for several performances per week. That is their entire purpose. If they can’t fulfil that purpose then the products are useless to the DJs and venues that purchase them.
Lets take a conservative example, and assume that a pair of CDJs is only being used on weekends. The CDJs are running firmware version 1.06, and a new firmware version has been released that fixes one or two bugs that haven’t negatively affected anyone yet, but could potentially cause a problem down the line.
As a systems administrator in my day job, I understand the risk of software updates causing problems, so I’m not going to update them five minutes before a gig – I’m going to wait until after the weekend so that I have some time to test the new firmware, and make sure the players are stable before I risk using them in front of an audience. This leaves me with 4-5 days to resolve any problems before I have to use them again.
Let’s say the new firmware introduces some new, highly disruptive bug. I now have a broken player, and need a resolution within 4-5 days. In the case of busier venues, that period might not be so forgiving – it might be more like 24-48 hours. Either way, I need a working firmware version, whether it’s a new version, or the ability to revert back to an old firmware (which worked well enough) within that 4-5 day period, otherwise I’m left with a product that is no longer fit for purpose.
Pioneer seem to think that keeping people waiting for well over a month with a product that they can no longer use is acceptable. Perhaps this works for the consumer market, but you’re dealing with professionals with deadlines for having working players. You cannot give us the brush off like this. “Wait for the new firmware to fix what we broke” isn’t an acceptable answer when you need the players back in a working state tomorrow. We need solutions inside 48 hours, not two months from now.
Pioneer also seems to have an obsession with preventing firmware downgrades. I can understand this up to a point, as newer firmware fixes known bugs in the players, but this simply doesn’t work in the real world. Sometimes the bug fix has negligible benefit, and the damage done by a dodgy update is both real and massively disruptive. In these cases, if Pioneer can’t ship an actual fix inside a 48-hour window, we really need a way to revert back to a working firmware version. A working (but flawed) firmware version is always preferable to a firmware version which breaks a critical feature of the player.
The world has changed. CDJ firmware is more complicated than it once was. Bug counts are higher. DJs and venues can no longer afford to update their players without some sort of back out plan when something goes wrong. “Update and pray” is not an acceptable solution in this market, and if Pioneer can’t get their head around this then Pioneer has no place in this market any more.
You’re going to start losing customers. The market is already shifting towards controllers in many places anyway, so my advice to Pioneer is not to throw away the high end market by messing up here. Big names have started to notice the problems with the CDJ 2000 Nexus, and these issues have been noted by both DJs and venues. If your products don’t meet the requirements of the DJs, they’re going to start using other products. Do something about it before its too late.
As for me, I’ve been a Pioneer user for years. I’ve got issues with the CDJ line (involving navigation, file formats, etc.) that I’ve discussed elsewhere, but ultimately I use CDJs because when it comes to playback, I like the way they feel and the way in which they perform. That’s all irrelevant if the players don’t work properly due to a poor firmware release.
I’m beginning to regret my Nexus purchase. If a relatively stable firmware release comes along, I’m updating to it and staying with it – no more risks. The Nexus players will also be my last Pioneer purchase unless Pioneer starts taking their support more seriously. You’ve got some interesting products these days – the XDJ-R1 looks like a great device, for example – but all of that is meaningless if you can’t get the software right. At least when I was using a laptop and controller, if a software update broke something I could restore the machine to full working order in less than a day.
Il post è chiuso ai commenti.
@Gavin - there is nothing that you need to do to win my trust. As far as I'm concerned, you're with us, doing the best you can in a difficult situation. I appreciate your efforts, even if they don't seem to achieve much right now. I know it sucks when you're trying to help people with problems but your hands are tied. You have my respect and my sympathies. Thanks for the input and information.
Unfortunately, I've little faith in Pioneer's ability to turn the DJ team around at the moment. I'd be pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong, It's going to take time and effort to turn this around properly, and given how wide the gulf is right now between the requirements of the users and what the management and development teams are delivering, it really is a case of I'll believe it when I see it. In the meantime that DJM-750 I was looking at is suddenly looking a lot less attractive when compared with the competition.
What I suspect will happen (at least in the medium term) is this: I'm currently on firmware 1.10, which works well enough for playing around at home, although I don't dare use it at gigs in case the navigation starts to lag. When new firmware is released, it's not going anywhere near either of my CDJs unless the forums indicate that all critical functionality is performing flawlessly and the update has had a enough testing to get a BriChi seal of approval. If those criteria are met, I'll probably update, but that's the last time a firmware update goes anywhere near the decks unless we get the ability to revert back from a troublesome update. Once I get them stable, I can't afford more regressions.
A working firmware update gets me back on track with the players. It's going to take more than that to get me to buy another Pioneer product though - the company MUST be able to deliver when it counts, and be able to recover from its mistakes quickly.
I'll shut up (and sleep) now.
Thanks for the reply Gavin - firmware wise, as you say there needs to be an alternative to a botched update going forward...
When new firmware is released, it's not going anywhere near either of my CDJs unless the forums indicate that all critical functionality is performing flawlessly and the update has had a enough testing to get a BriChi seal of approval
LOL, I love this.... I will definitely be testing as soon as it is released and will let you know asap
Thanks Gavin.... we needed that.
one more thing about this remote box s/w... Did you all see that the "key" was in camalot form.... :) I really hope this gets put in to RB for the next update... I hate the work around i have to do for this... I will gladly re analyze all my music for this feature... I don't care about drifting loops... not syncing perfect... just give me camalot keys and being able to scroll through RB on the laptop via my cdj2000 nexus... I promise i won't bitch anymore. ;)... LOL
Thanks for the update and nod that there's a new FW imminent. Can Pioneer learn from this and at least give us proactive notice of new FW releases rather than the silence and poker style ignorance that there's no problem being experienced until everyone blows up?
Everyone on this board is fully appreciative of the complexities of the hardware and grown up to realise that things don't happen overnight but the not knowing your issue is being addressed is the killer.
First of all Gavin, thank you for your response and support :)
I agree 100% with MouseAT, he's totally right.
Having a firmware upgrade now is needed yes, but it's only a short term patch. You guys in pioneer have a serious issue with your processes and lack of manpower. This is where you have to look for a long term solution. As mentioned by many others you have to look at improved and longer test periods for new fw releases, including having a bigger amount of beta testers involved, and to devote more resources to the CDJ 2000 nexus and to rekordbox as well.
In the meantime please give us the possibility to downgrade/revert back to older versions of the firmware.
@BriChi > Thanks again, Brian.
@MouseAT > Thanks for the kind words.
@pete > No worries. I have your suggestions from several weeks ago which have been forwarded. For the purposes of this thread however, we'll keep things to the bugs only at the moment.
@Turfer > Thanks for that.
@Paulm72 > I'm fully with you on this - I believe a company has to have an open door policy with its customers nowadays. We're really trying to improve on that.
@Julia > Thank you for your response and criticisms.
I appreciate your patience in resolving these issues and I assure you, a fix is only a short while away.
Gavin - Has the issue of beta testers from the forum been raised/discussed?
If so, how did the idea go down?
Some fantastic points raised by all ... @MouseAT ... Spot on with everything you have said.
As for getting money back, here in the UK there's the sale of goods act, which is particularly useful if you're like me and bought the CDJs as a consumer,
^^ I completely agree with the above ... In the UK with have the "Sales of Goods act" ... something I pointed out to the tech team in my call on Friday. But its completely unfair on my retailer who have been spot on with myself over the last few years ... Why should they have to suffer me "returning the Nexus" as defective - due to the poor support off Pioneer tech (not Gavin - the Pio forum reps here have done as much as they can - its not their fault)
The levels of complete incompetence which this product have been eye watering.
Gavin - Thank you for understanding my points ... But we need movement on the issue.
The lifespan of each of the CDJ 1000 & CDJ 2000s have been between 2 & and half & 3 and a half years. The Nexus should be the same ... even hinting at a new release (along with support for a newer model with Remotebox) - really has fired up alot of build frustration.
We need ACTION -- Not just the engineers are doing their best (again this is no dig at you Gavin - im along with many others are very frustrated with the whole process)
Again - If Serato, Traktor and even the "D" company can do it ... why cant the Current Flagship Number One (question towards the tech, RnD and customer service divisions within Pioneer)
Fellow UK Users ==================
Having still kept my CDJ2000 MK1's I would like to explore the idea of returning my Nexus - any guidance appreciated as to how you enforce the sale of goods act ?
I could quite easily go back to the originals and use Traktor HID for where the Nexus has failed me.......
I sold my Mk1's ... Something Ive been regretting for the last few months. The Mk1 didnt have slip ... but you could use it with Serato
The Ipad // Android options have not lived upto the hype, also there is no way to control a USD HD from the Ipad as was advertised in Sept (like the new controller or Aero)
The fact that mine crash twice every night - and have since Sept, means in considering all options but its the retailer Ill have to deal with - Completely unfair on them.
This mess is Pioneers responsibly to resolve. Again if they were brought on a Credit card, that also might be an option in the UK for extra protection. My patience ran out when I saw Remotebox.
Best bet would be Citizens Advice Bureau, get some advise. I think. Depends if you have the stomach for it, some useful advise here too ...
I had the HD issue 3 times tonight, THREE TIMES ... the unit needed to be restarted, I lost my tag list & had to restart the machine.
Another EPIC Fail.
Though was fun using the slip mode and loops - these machine's are so Jekyll and Hyde. Some of the features & potential is awesome.
Some of the flaws bugs and issues are mind boggling.
They promise so much - but fail to deliver on reliability
Thank you all for your input in this post. We will be posting an update soon (firmware update).