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CDJ2000 firmware bug (v4.04) Master Tempo 'On' glitch

i've found that, in some circumstances, simply turning the master tempo button on, can cause a significant glitch in the audio.

i had been trying out the newly fixed 4 beat loop button on both of my cdjs simultaneously (using the same track on both, 320mp3 from beatport) and wondered if the master tempo algorithm had been updated also, so simply pressed the MT button one one of the players. the synced mix suddenly jumped way out of time the second MT turned on, resulting in a trainwreck. this was not just a slight glitch that could be corrected with the jog, it was a significant jump that couldn't be corrected by a dj during live play.

 

i've since been able to make this happen again several times, although i've not yet been able to determine a set of re-produceable steps.

i was playing via the prolink using rekordbox at the time but i'm sure this has happened to me before on v3 firmware playing of RB analysed tracks off a USB stick - at the time i put it down to user error but now i'm sure it was the same error as i had just pressed the MT button also.

whilst this is not a big problem for regular operation, i think it is a bug. i have been recently doing a lot of testing to see how the recently improved master tempo algorithm is sounding, hence me turning it on/off regularly during mixes.

 

Phil

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Phil, the engineers have asked if you could send a copy of the file for them to test as they were unable to replicate the exact issue you describe.  You can email it direct to me at: 

Pulse 0 voti
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no problem pulse, although i'm sure i can get it to do the glitch on any track.

whilst i can't reproduce it everytime, i'm going to do some tests this weekend to narrow down the conditions needed to get the error as well as find the track i used last time it happened.

Phil 0 voti
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after 2 hours of trying to replicate this issue today, i couldn't get it to do it once. when i first discovered the glitch i could replicate it 1 in every 4 or 5 attempts.

same track as before. weird.

i can still send you the track pulse, but i'm not sure how much help it is as it doesn't do it anymore. i don't want to waste the engineers time.

Phil 0 voti
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Played around tonight on my 900's latest firmware. Found something that sounds the same.

Same song loaded on both same 8 beat loop pitch at plus 4% MT OFF.  I had both songs playing the loop in sync. All is sweet.

I hit both MT's at once and the loops started phasing all over the place .Turned MT off and i synced the loops up again all sweet. Tried again this time the loops jumped out of time a lot. Turned MT off and i synced them up again.

This time i kept hitting the MT's on both players few times every time I hit MT the loops seemed to jump. Some times a bit some times a lot. The more you turned MT on and off the worse it got.  They just jumped more and more out of time.

 

The song i used was a 320k MP3 from beatport exported from RB to my hard drive, quantized on. HD in player 1, player 2 linked.

Morgo 0 voti
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i had the 'problem' happen again last night.

i had MT off on both players, i had 2 tracks playing perfectly in sync but the new track was slightly out of key so i wondered if it would sit better if i flicked MT on as it was pitched 1.75 slower. anyway, it totally wrecked the mix - it was too far out to know which way to nudge the platter.

there's definitely something fishy going on here.

 

@morgo - i'm glad you noticed it too, sounds like the same thing. it doesn't do it every time and sometimes i can't get it to do it at all.

the phasing is pretty normal for MT - the algorithm is moving the audio slices around. some tracks do it more than others, although it is much more noticeable on the 900/2000's than the old mk3's.

Phil 0 voti
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Hi,

I just read this subject. And immediately I tried it out. Got exact same issue on my CDJ 2000.

1)      Check if master tempo is off

2)      Press 4beat auto loop

3)      Press mastertempo fast on off

 

The issue dous not happen every time!

DJ Meks 0 voti
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Actually this 'issue' has been there a long time (as far as I know)

I own and work with the new cdjs since the beginning and sometimes the cdjs glitched and go out-of-sync when pressing MT.

I did not use MT much in the previous firmware (because it needs some tweaking imo) so I can't say much about the recent changes in FW.

 

Benno Revelli 0 voti
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I have to eddit: Track Source -> USB Annalysed with Recordbox 1.4.1

DJ Meks 0 voti
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The amount that the master tempo affects the audio depends on what degree of manipulation is required on every slice for it to keep the pitch locked and the audio itself is what determines that depending on the complexity of the sound therein.

It will react the same every time for a track at a certain percentage, and you can test that with two identical tracks running at the same pitch at the same playback point; the master tempo will alter them in the same way.

This issue has been reported to the engineers and they have tested it but their results were that it was within their tolerances.  I'm headed to Tokyo for meetings in July and will see if I can bring this up with them again for further discussion.

Pulse 0 voti
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hi pulse, this is different to the slight glitch that sometimes happens when turning MT on (which i agree, is fully within tolerance).

this is a big jump we're talking about here, enough to trainwreck a mix, enough make me not want to touch the MT button whilst djing which i think surely must make it something that is not within tolerance?

benno is quite right, this bug has been around for a while - it happened to me in v3. but because of the other issues surrounding MT, i've been leaving it off until recently...

Phil 0 voti
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I have a question for you guys ... how often are you engaging / disengaging the MT in the middle of a track?

Pulse 0 voti
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maybe its just me; but I dont think pressing MT on/off repeatedly during a mix is going to help anything.. I have noticed 'drifting' or a track being completely off despite the bpm being directly on point with the other tracks; however this has something to do with the auto-tap function im assuming. (In a particular instance I had the aforementioned situation occur and the auto-bpm was at 126 while my players were at 124) I fixed this manually using 'tap' :).....

I guess what im roughly trying to say is -don't always rely on a little red light that says MT... I hate to be brash but despite 900/2000's being very avante guard pieces of technology; it doesn't mean we dont have to use our ears...

magoo 0 voti
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@magoo

                   We are not talking anything about the auto bpm counter on the mixer with the tap button.

We are talking about a jumping in the track when the MT button is pushed and seems to me to be slight tempo changes when MT is on.

 

@Pulse,

                 Not every often normally just leave it on. But  saying that there could be room for improvement.

Morgo 0 voti
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@morgo

apologies.. To be honest; i'm still running v4.0 firmware and it seems to be working okay (knock on wood). However in regards to a jump in the track when MT is pushed; I've never actually done that, so I will have to test it out in my next session and I will post the results. But now that you mention tempo changes when MT is on, i'm beginning to see the relevance; again I will test this in the next session and post the outcome. GL

 

magoo

magoo 0 voti
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@pulse, i very rarely turn MT on/off during a set as i'm sure is the case with most folk on here. i certainly don't usually repeatedly turn it on / off - however i did when i was testing the new firmware to see if MT had been improved and this is when i noticed it.

i usually keep it off but every now & them as i'm cueing up a new track and there's a bit of a key clash, i switch on the MT to see if it will lessen the clash. this is usually where the jump happens.

to be clear, it isn't a tempo change, it isn't a small glitch that can easily be corrected. it is a jump (maybe half a beat?) that forces me to abandon the mix and hit cue and start the track again. it hasn't happened when it turn MT off, only on.

its no show stopper and i can't imagine a lot of people ever finding it, as MT is usually on or off depending on the dj but i think there's a bug hiding away in there.

Phil 0 voti
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another good way to avoid a key clash=harmonically mixing...

magoo 0 voti
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Okay I also tested this thing further...

My conclusion:

From the 20 times I pressed the button it only happened about 2 times.

So we could say the 'beat jump/skip' only happens sometimes.. not every time we use it.

Overall I didn't hear much problems when turning MT on or off..

When the glitch appeared my beatmatched tracks where way off

Benno Revelli 0 voti
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this is easy to reproduce too, Even with the pitch locked at 0, if you press the MT button a couple of times on and off, the beat will jump at least one out of the 10 times

BriChi 0 voti
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thanks benno & brichi. i knew there was a bug in there, it was getting frustrating trying to find the correct steps to reproduce it regularly.

hopefully the engineers can provide us with a fix.

Phil 0 voti
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I think Pulse's question was valid.  Are we really going to be switching MT when mixing 2 live tracks?  There are of course real issues with MT, but I think this one is mostly inherent to how MT actually works.

Mark90 0 voti
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Of course most people will not be switching MT on/off live in a mix, BUT, why not fix the issue? For the expense people put into these decks, In my opinion, They should be perfect. Of course the engineers should be working on more important issues then this but there is no reason why this cannot be a low priority fix for a future update.

BriChi 0 voti
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MT actually alters the structure and waveform of the sound.  It just seems natural to me that this issue will occur.

Mark90 0 voti
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I did the test with the pitch locked at "0" so it would not be altering anything

BriChi 0 voti
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and, if it was natural for that to happen, then it should have happened on all the 1000's/800''s etc....

BriChi 0 voti
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@mark90 - it's a bug, albeit not a major one, but it is a bug all the same and should be fixed.

it is not natural that pressing the button on the cdj will sometimes cause such a significant jump in the track that it will trainwreck your mix.

if it was natural, it would do it every time. i'm well aware of how MT works, i've been using it since the cdj500 and this has never happened before!

Phil 0 voti
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instead of starting a new thread I figures I would just add to this glitchy one :)

last night, twice, after mixing a track, it's playing live for 30 seconds and it just decides to jump up a couple of frames, pretty much a very noticeable skip in music, I now totally give up on MT and hope that is what caused it because if I keep MT off and this happens next weekend again then I totally give up on this way of dj'ing and it's back to serato which would really suck for me being that I spent all this money on these decks to dj and organize this way. And pioneer, please don't say it's the tracks, it's not, I have played these 2 songs on your players almost every party for the last year and they never skipped, The MT, Link, or way of decoding on these players are just unreliable right now, just not sure which one of the 3 it is right now

BriChi 0 voti
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Hello guys! Ive read the whole tread and was about to update my cdjs, but now Im kinda scared. I normally play with MT ON at all time to keep the key in line on both tracks and to be honest I havent noticed this jump that everyone mentions, but if so many people have noticed this, then its something to be worried.

Im going to delay the upgrade of the firmware and will do some tests during the week before a gig on saturday and will relay my findings

Arthur C 0 voti
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I just found a way to reproduce this.

Simply press MT repeatedly on and off quickly.  The track should skip after not so very long.  I reckon 30 seconds of quick pressing is enough for it to happen every time.

Mark90 0 voti
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