DJM 900NXS2 Cue Level

You're thinking about this sort of in reverse.  The cue level will always be fixed at a similar level to as when the channel volume and master/main/prgm volumes are both at their respective unity: studio, live, or DJ style mixers.  This is because the cue is just sending you the pre-fader-level to the headphones of what gets routed to the mix bus.  What you want is for the master level to match in the headphones to the cue, not the other way around.  This requires you to either put the master out volume at its unity of about 2:15 o'clock on the DJM when the faders are at max/10, or you must put the faders at 7 as their unity and then max/10 on the master volume out becomes unity.  Pioneer had this arrangement originally for the DJM-1000 that had a rotary option so that old timers could put those at 7 instead of 10 so they wouldn't have to fiddle with the gain/trims all the time. 

Pioneer does not give you the option of adding a -10dB pad or anything prior to the master volume out as Numark, Denon, and some other companies do.  A&H and Rane actually just usually have max/10 on their master outs as unity, and some of them do not even affect the master volume of the headphones at all.  Lot of different ways to do it, but in none of them can you or would you even want to change the cue volume to be varying from the unity level sent to the master mix bus.  I recommend in your case you just stick the master out volume at 2:15 o'clock-ish so the master meter matches the channel meters and stick something over the master knob like a blue neutrik connector ring or something. 

One other consideration on the Pioneers is that if you have low-isolation headphones, you might actually want the master out volume to be slightly less than 2:15 o'clock just to balance out the bleed into the headphones from the surrounding sound system.  I don't do that, but there is some use to doing that, even though you sort of mess up the metering that way.

I have my Master out to 2:10
I didn't mention that this is when I am using the Master CUE button.
If I use the Channel CUE buttons the volume is the same in all  channels.

Turn the crossfader off.  Put a channel fader all the way up.  EQs strait up.  Change the master out volume until the master meter matches the channel meter and the cue for that channel matches the master cue in the headphones.  Both that cue and the master cue on, with the phones mix knob strait up.  Stick it in mono split and when the mono sum is right in the middle of your head (flip the phones around once or twice to make sure it's not your ears), you've got it right.  Unless Pioneer recently changed the master out volume pad to be pre-knob in the latest firmware, the master out volume knob will end up at like 2:15ish o'clock.  If they did change this in firmware, then if you had the pad at -10dB, unity on the master out volume would probably be max now.

I have DJM 900NXS-W and also have the issue.

This is not a bug or issue - it's the way pre-fader listening works.

I don’t like it this way.
As I have mentioned, if I cue both channels (cue lights on channels), the volumes are the same but it’s not effective.
I hope the master cue could be the same in a future firmware update.

So are you all saying in the latest DJM900NXS2 firmware, the master cue is pre-master-volume knob and that knob does not affect the master cue?

@Reticuli > No, that is still post-fader.

So what changed, the master volume unity from 2:15 o'clock to instead max, or whether the master attenuators add real headroom prior to clip or not?  Previously all your mixers have had master volume unity at 2:15 o'clock and the attenuation is just a kind of last stage pad with no real added headroom.  Not right or wrong, but just the way you guys do it.  The rotary kits actually sort of benefit from the former if you want unity on the channel knobs at 7.  Is this still all the same in the latest firmware and OP just didn't know how it works?

See my official response from January...

• Set your channel gain so the channel meter shows peaks at the 0dB mark
• Take the channel meter to full-open
• Disable the crossfader or put it to the side of that channel 100%
• Turn the master knob so the master meter shows peaks at the same 0dB mark

So long as your channel and master meters match, the volume in the headphones for each source will as well.

BUT! If you select the cue for the channel which is already going to master, you're doubling that source, so obviously it will be louder.

Richard Thrale, your post is all over the place, man.  As Pulse says, if both the cue and master are on at the same time and the little mini cue crossfade knob is somewhere in the middle, both will sum.  

"Unity isn't at 12 o'clock or 2:15, it's more like 5:00..there is not enough play in it."

What knob are you talking about when you say that?

This thread is about the DJM900NXS2, not the 450.  You're talking about the 450 like it performs exactly like the NXS2 mixer.  There's no way of me knowing what the latest firmware does on it.  I'm asking you specifics on what you're getting and what you're doing.  You are not clear.

As for the 450, I asked what knob you were talking about you putting at 2:15 o'clock.  Because when I'm talking about that, I'm talking about the Master Volume knob, just past where that bold arc starts.

FWIW, I didn't mention the manual.  I didn't learn how the cue function works on Pioneers from manuals but from using them.

When I'm talking about the mini cue crossfader knob, I'm talking about the headphone cue knob that selects between cue and prgm/master.  That's crossfading between the two.

There are only two unity spots that matter on these mixers.  Fader unity and output volume knob unity, like the master and booth volume knobs.  Fader unity is maximum (all the way up) when the output knob (like Master Volume) is at 2:15 O'CLOCK (not 2 out of 10).  If you put the Master Volume at MAXIMUM, then fader unity is about 7 out of 10.  Unity makes the volume exiting at that point the same as entering at that point.

The cue knob crossfader thing that says Mixing below Split and above headphone Level just goes from master cue on the right to channel cue on the left.  Simple.  It's just a little crossfader function in the form of a knob for the cue system.  It has no unity.

The unity on the channel input gain/trims are completely off-topic.  It doesn't matter what those are set at for your issue (stay out of red, duh), but you do need to put your EQs centered, as those affect the channel meter readouts.

It works that way on the DJM-450 because of the target market; they want to hear the full volume of the master in the headphones while being able to use the master volume knob to turn down their PA.

How they have it right now on the 450 is not a bad thing.  A little weird they'd finally do that considering people are kinda just getting their feet wet on the 450 with the expectation of what they learn on that carrying over to their higher end stuff, which I assumed is why they stuck with the DJM-style channel cues rather than a simple ch1 to ch2 fader on the headphones.  I mean, this other way is new for Pioneer, but that's basically how every other company in the world does it.  Pioneer did it the other way originally for the DJM-1000 with rotary option (has unity marked at 7) and just keeps doing it on all their other mixers.  Well, until the 450 apparently.

Richard, if the channel cue is selected, master cue is selected, and crossfader is off, is the cue-master knob (the knob between split and level) full left side the same volume in the headphones as the full right side?  I'm talking only one channel fader up, the same channel you're cueing.

If it is the same volume, then Pioneer's just made their cueing system easier to use for you is all.  If it's not the same volume, that'd be interesting.  If master is substantially louder than cue in the headphones when the channel fader is at max, they might just want you only putting the fader at 7 out of 10.

With the channel fader all the way up?  Yeah, then that's good. That's how every other company making DJ mixers in the world right now does it.  Fascinating that Pioneer chose to do that, but o.k. then.  Easier for you.  No fiddling with the master volume for the cueing.

Does Master Volume still affect the master meter on the 450 and 2:15 o'clock on that knob just into the bold band makes the master meter the same as the channel meter that has the fader all the way up?

Unity is just the two meters & signals being the same, not a particular spot on the meter itself.  How the 450's master volume unity is working I guess is a good thing for consistency, at least.  IMO they should just be moving to maximum on the Master Volume being unity on it, especially if they want it to not affect the headphones anymore.  The whole point of the master volume unity being less than maximum was so you could have the fader unity be instead less than maximum if the master volume was at maximum.  They offset each other.  A teeny tiny minority of people prefer to use faders only up to 7 on them, but as I previously stated this was mostly just the rotary heads.

Zero dB unity gain, you mean like the U or +0 mark on a studio mixer trim/gain knob or channel fader along its travel?  I hope you're not talking about the markings on a meter, because 0dBVU on a meter has nothing to do with unity... that's just the average nominal signal level the mixer wants.

Denon's always been pretty good about letting people change where the unity is on the master volume, but their master volume doesn't affect the headphone cue and they expect everyone to put the faders at max.  You go into settings on them and put it at like 0 instead of +10 or something and you can just stick the master at max and the meters instantly match when set to stereo.  Leave it at max and you never have to worry about the master getting weirdly louder than the channels.  That's an issue on the Pioneers having that within arms reach of a DJ.

Even Rane expects people to put their rotary volumes at the bottom of the MP2015 at max, and again, their master volume doesn't affect the headphones.  They're kind of weird in that the master volume doesn't even affect the master meter.  The "within arms reach of the DJ" thing is even worse on them, as you really need to make sure that knob is all the way up at its unity when you test the sound system.

Neither Denon nor Rane have built-in post-master-volume last stage pads to attenuate for outboard gear like the Pioneers do, though.  Those are actually pretty useful for going into some boards that even with their -24dB line input pads might be overloading too easily with the XLR DJM outs as hot as possible. Thank goodness for aftermarket XLR pads to deal with the Denons and Ranes.

I guess it was nice of Pioneer to want a studio-style fader unity with optional boost, but only the DJM-1000 rotary option ever even showed such a spot.  It was possible on their others, but you wouldn't know from looking at it.  You'd think they'd put alternative marks at both 10 and 7 on the fader plates and 2:15 o'clock and max markings on the master volume.  It's like the people making the face plates weren't talking to the DSP coders much.  Well, they talked once briefly for the DJM1000 rotary option.

A studio fader's 0 just below the top of its travel is indeed its unity point.

You sound like you're talking about the DN-X1700 mixer.  One of my favorites.  Denon knocked that one out of the park and hardly anyone noticed.  Excellent upsampling on it.  Discrete-design (rather than IC chips) phono preamp and headphone stages.  Dual R-core power supplies.  Lots of custom components right down to the caps used.  Was the first DJ mixer I'm aware of to use floating point DSP and have 32bit DACs.  Arguably the most sophisticated DJ mixer ever built and hard to believe Denon ever made money on it at the prices they were selling it for.  I don't want to say the x1800 is dumbed down, but, I mean, it's not what I'd call an exotic design.  As for firmware, it gains some options/features and loses some others.  Matches well with the functionality of their new players, though, and they have a headphone split cue side option that I almost can't live without. Hoping they'll add an "auto" mode to that to switch the split cue side based on the cue.  At least it's a current product, so it's still open for software updates.

For all Pioneer's faults, their players sound great with keylock off or with it on and positive pitch, and their mixers have only gotten better sounding over the years.  They really do try.

They are indeed cheap now.  I got another one recently as a backup, or more accurately, to gig with more so I don't mess up the unsealed NIB one I have.  I'm more a rotary head, though... which is sort of what I want to have someone do, convert the beat up 1700 to a rotary.  The faders cleaned up very nicely on it, though, after a good soaking, drying, and lube.

There's a guy in Italy and one in the states that will do conversions of cheaper fader mixers.