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[OPEN] Rekordbox 3 need Kuvo account - privacy issue

forcing Djs to have an account on Kuvo and share tracks name isn't it a bit against privacy law?

maybe I am missing a point about Kuvo, but I don't want to share any information about me and my sets.

can Pioneer tell me that my privacy is protected enough?

legally speaking if I buy some pioneer hardware I should have all the rights to use rekordbox, that is basically a music database arranger for our pioneer gear, without sharing any info on the web about me.

am I wrong?

 

John Hagen

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That is a good question and I am fully on your side. I have already voiced my negative opinion on the Kuvo registration in another thread that was closed promptly...

Regarding the playlists I think there is an option to not connect and share anything with Kuvo. I had a quick look at rb 3 a few days ago and I think I saw that thing.

Regarding privacy I also find annoying that I have to register again to another web service to have something that I already had before. Especially considering that in my case I have given quite a lot of money to Pioneer for my 2 cdjs, I'd find preferable to have rb already registered and available without having to register again.

I do not even know if rb 3 works if you are not connected to the internet or (hopefully) something is written to your computer when you register to kuvo. If somebody could shed some light on this, we'll be happy to know.

if you want to make sure that nothing is shared there are some ways that if discussed here obviously would lead to another swift closure of the thread >:)

 

Julia O 0 票
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I'm sorry, I don't see how this is potentially a violation of any privacy laws. Pioneer's got good lawyers and the corporate privacy policy is available here: https://register.pioneerdj.com/privacy.php?ap_lang=en

Yes, you do have to register again for the KUVO account because Pioneer decided (thanks to their privacy policy) not to automatically transfer your rekordbox account over to KUVO. And if you want to use rekordbox, you have to agree to the terms and conditions, one of which is registration of an account.

Pioneer understands that DJs will prepare their music where no network exists, so yes, rekordbox DOES work without a network connection.

Much as Serato allows you to automatically upload your track information in realtime to "the cloud," KUVO provides DJs with the opportunity to have their information shared with fans, clubgoers, etc. Keep in mind that this information is ONLY available to the KUVO club network when you are at a venue where a KUVO gateway is installed. Track details from YOUR COMPUTER are not instantly pushed to the system. Additionally, if you don't want to share your track information, you CAN tick the box to make it private and it will not be available online.

The KUVO network is a really cool thing and if you haven't looked into it, check it out at: http://djclubnetwork.com.

Pulse 0 票
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Thanks Julia, thanks Pulse for your reply.

I have no doubt that Pioneer has first quality lawyers and privacy are 100% respected.

I just think this commercial operation of pushing KUVO over Rekorbox is not as good as Pioneer could think, forcing users to do something is just a shortcut, I suggest pioneer to invest more on the application design.

Last I don't see KUVO as a cool tool, simply I don't like the concept behind.

all the best

John

John Hagen 0 票
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its just a way to register the user, a lot of software companies make you register or create an account to use their software, I am confused on why this is such a big deal. No info is getting shared publicly from your playlists unless YOU choose to, not Pioneer. Serato does the same exact thing and no one complained about that

BriChi 0 票
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The point of KUVO is to allow the DJ to communicate with fans all over the world by what tracks they are playing, especially their own music.  You can have KUVO open doors in new clubs and markets and countries by playing out and getting support from the actual fans.  The point of Rekordbox behind KUVO is so that the pathway is possible to speak with the KUVO box.  I have spent HOURS using the KUVO set-up in Miami and Vegas and LA and it is a HUGE plus for a DJ who may not be well known, and for the well known DJs they can show how their sets are changing and giving the club goer another reason to see them out.

Jay 0 票
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Hi BriChi, thanks for contribution,

yes I agree it is not a big deal but if registration was optional then it was just right, image if you buy any generic hardware and you need to register to get latest drivers... I don't think this is appreciated.

 

Hi djjay,

I don't like Kuvo concept, I understand some could love it, just I ask to give us the choice to register or not.

I'm not criticizing Kuvo itself, I'm criticizing the way I'm forced to try it... simply I don't need it and so I don't want to try it, I feel like this is a forced Trial.

Simply I don't like this way of marketing.

John Hagen 0 票
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Hi John, I completely understand where you are coming from but I guess Pioneer figured they would force registration to keep track of how many people use the software and since KUVO was already up and running, they used this as their registration process

Like other companies that do not make you register for FW for the hardware, Neither does pioneer, I never registered to download FW for my CDJ's. 

 

BriChi 0 票
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i don't see an issue either. no-one is being forced to trial kuvo in any capacity, kuvo doesn't do anything at all unless the club has a kuvo router installed and you have chosen to share your playlists with it (and sharing is off by default). kuvo doesn't interest me personally either but i can see the advantages for a certain level of dj - richie hawtin had a something a few years ago that used to do the same thing which was popular amongst his following.

it's pretty much standard practice to register for 'free' fully featured applications (and nowadays most paid ones), you get a free application and Pioneer get your email address - you choose whether that's a fair trade. there's no such thing as a free lunch as they say. :-) 

Phil 0 票
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Hi BriChi,

in some way I agree with you even if rekorbox isn't really a kind of firmware. but it is an essential software to get full advantages of our hardware.

Hi Phil,

thanks for reply, I understand your point. Just one question, if the club has a Kuvo router installed and I have chosen to not share any playlist, does Pioneer collect any information about my dj-set without making it public? can you guarantee that Pioneer doesn't store any info about me?

isn't it a privacy issue legally speaking?

of course I have to agree to Rekorbox contractual term if I want to use the software and so Pioneer has all rights to use any information.

John Hagen 0 票
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hi john, i don't work for pioneer so couldn't tell you if anything is stored or not. maybe one of the mods could let us know?

Phil 0 票
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It's not a forced trial; if you don't want to register for KUVO, you will be unable to use rekordbox, per the terms of agreement. KUVO information is ONLY sent when you are in a club using a CDJ system connected to a KUVO gateway. And even then, your information is not available to the public OR Pioneer if you have it set to private. Nothing is stored if it's private.

If you REALLY want to make sure it's private, disconnect the link to the gateway -- although the club might not appreciate that. ;)

Pulse 0 票
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Is there a published pdf version of the current KUVO user agreement?

Leffrey 0 票
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hi Leffrey,

I don't know...please keep us updated about any news if you get some interesting news.

John Hagen 0 票
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 Is there a published pdf version of the current KUVO user agreement?

 

Doesn't one pop up when you register? I don't remember, just read and agree (if you want) to that one.

BriChi 0 票
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Hi,

I must say I agree to the issues mentioned in the original post completely. This is a violation of end users, and should not be described as "normal business". Lets look at one statement (from "Pulse"): "KUVO information is ONLY sent when you are in a club using a CDJ system connected to a KUVO gateway.".

Then the EULA:

  1. Sharing and using the track information
      1. By using the Service, you agree to publically share the track information (title of the track, date and time of the play, playing time, name of the artist, composer/author of the track, and the record label, hereinafter collectively "track information") and the DJ name you registered.
      2. By using the Service, you agree to Pioneer providing, as electromagnetic data, the DJ name you registered and the track information to third party(s) including without limitation, performance rights organizations/performing rights organizations which Pioneer have contracts with in each country. Even if your setting is "Private" on rekordbox for the track information, or you are not using rekordbox, Pioneer will provide the DJ name you registered and the track information to third party(s).

Please elaborate/explain. You say that no data from Rekordbox will be shared if you make the choice to make it private, but as I read this EULA, it seems your players will upload this data even if you activate "private" settings, and to top that, if you do not use Rekordbox at all? Does this include local data? Does this include ANYTHING played on a CDJ of new standard? You state this is only done if you are in a club with a connected KUVA system, but honestly, this EULA is pretty close to a deal breaker either way for me, and this might be the last time I buy your products, unless an official comment is made which remedies this point.

Also, since you have delivered an edition of Rekordbox WITH the player (The software CD was a part of the original package), this is simply an upgrade with hooks attached. I work with software and development, and an EULA like this I have actually never seen the likes of in any form of sound or production software.

And before anybody jumps the gun; this is not to avoid getting caught for piracy. This is for not getting my privacy avoided. Way too many companies these days think that since people share a lot of private information all around the web, that they also have the right to use this information for commercial purposes. This is not the case, no matter how many people work in your legal staff. You might not break any laws in your country, but you are breaking my confidence in your products, and that should count for something, since your customers in the end is the provider of your revenues.

My 2 cents, any takers?

Bratch Munson 0 票
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Given that this issue touches on legal aspects that I can't speak to on behalf of Pioneer, I'll ask them to address your concerns.

Pulse 0 票
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Thanks a lot Bratch Munson.

thanks Pulse, please tell them that our privacy is something to protect because we can choose what kind of product we will buy in the future.

John Hagen 0 票
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I'm quite sure this eula does not meet up to the legal standards of the European Union. No matter how good Pioneers Lawyers are, the do not make the law. I am quite shocked (again) reading this post. I already mentioned in another post that I did NOT buy your product with Recordbox considered a free gift with my hardware but it is the necessary connection to your networkgear. Without it many other players would be much more competitive.

I think we all agree you sell a very good product. If you didn't we would not want to have it. But the way you sell it seems very half baked needing to defend yourself on legal issues and trying to tell your costumers they do not need the other half of your (IT) networkbased products, the software. It really is 2014 and no matter how good your lawyers are, this does not fly with me.

I can see how dedicated you guys are helping us out -Pulse, Brichi- so there should not be any reason to take or make this personally. I know how hard it is finding your place in a company that stands for a great and wanted product and being critisized. I sincerely think you guys should be bothered with technical issues and have some other guy answer to these kind of questions. I wouldn't know what study to follow that would enable anyone to be a professional in both. It is why I can't see your answers to this matter as a descent answer.

Again: I'm shocked reading this eula. But I would still feel forced to agree and from where I live, I can't accept this as a legal document. I would actually consider fighting it in court.

ShonkaiDJ 0 票
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I agree but just to clarify, I do not not work for Pioneer I just feel it is no big deal to register being I am not sharing any tracks or actually using the KUVO system. 

BriChi 0 票
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I received tpday an email from Pioneer with links to new privacy and new t&Cs, I tried to open the links and the firewall in my office told me that I cannot access "porn" website. My coworkers looked at me because I was laughing really hard :D

Julia O 0 票
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I'll get you a better link, sorry for an inconvenience.

Jay 0 票
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Okay, so while not necessarily the information you're looking for, here's what I've been told:

|

If a user really does not want his/her information collected by Pioneer, he/she has the following options:

If you're playing at home at a club without a KUVO system installed, your DJ Name, Track Name will not be shown on the KUVO website.

If you create an account without editing your profile, for example not filling DJ Name in your profile, your DJ Name and Track Names you played at a club (including KUVO installed club) will also not be shown on the KUVO website.

|

Should there be other specific sections of the EULA you would like clarified, please let us know and we can try to get further info.

Pulse 0 票
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After receiving that email I logged into Kuvo (I have to admit that I only logged in once a few months ago in order to test rb 3) to see if there was something to set up to increase my privacy, and indeed I found

What you say Pulse is also what is written at the top of the profile editing page, it says that if one of the mandatory fields is left empty the information will not be made public. But, there is a great "but"...it doesn't work as described. If one of the mandatory fields is not used you will not be able to save your profile.

If I don't fill for instance the DJ name as you mention, I am not able to save the modifications. The button with the save link at the bottom of the page does not work, it becomes active only if all the mandatory fields contain some data.

For the time being I will remove my kuvo account. I don't use rb 3 anyway, since I use rb 2 merely as a tool to write data on the USB sticks and I do all the analysis and playlist management with other software I don't see any benefit for me in joining this kuvo nonsense for a software that I don't need/use :)

Julia O 0 票
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Most surprising to me was the fact that even if Rekordbox is not used, my CDJ's will (possibly) send information according to the UELA.  Technically very well possible. Another strange thing is to prevent technical problems it has been advised to create a network disconnected from your normal network. You would need quite some technical knowledge to still be able to connect to the internet or get the wifi apps to work.

I don't understand how a professional company like pioneer would want to get involved in all these non music production issues. It all sound like Microsoft in the ninetees. No harm meant but at some point sued and judged.

ShonkaiDJ 0 票
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The last CDJ firmware update added kuvo support, only that, no bug fixes or new functions. As long as one doesn't install that firmware it should be pretty safe that the CDJs will not be able to send anything to the kuvo network.

Julia O 0 票
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Many thanks for that update Julia O. I work with Rekordbox 3 and Kuvo so I'm forced to deal with the hands in my pants. :-) I know the product and professional software I wanted to pay for. Just didn't realize that (and many other things I needed to be grateful for where I thought paying was enough). I'll deal with it when the time comes.

ShonkaiDJ 0 票
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I realize, though may not agree, that everyone is concerned with privacy; but when it comes to your tracks in a club?  The issue of broadcasting the information that your feeding the CDJs will first need you connected to a network via the systems that you use.  If you are not playing in a KUVO (usually a bigger/super) club then you are probably not connected to a network. 

Please help me to understand so that when I speak to the Engineers I have a better sense of what the bottom line concern/issue/complaint is.  I read these posts as a concern of privacy when performing in a club and hooked up to a network, even though I have played several clubs with KUVO and been able to select private or public on all my songs, I haven't experienced the process as a negative or possible problem.  WE are here to help bridge the user and Pioneer so that is our (Pulse and I) goal and that is why I am asking for any info so that I can help to make Japan understand what you would like to see happen.  Will it, maybe not, but keeping the communication channel open is the sole goal of the Forums....

 

djjay

Jay 0 票
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Hey djjay. Thanks for the response to this forum.

The thing with privacy is not necessarily something that can be named. That is why privacy is protected by law. It is a historical fact that the more powerful have abused the less powerful disturbing their privacy. In periods of peace and freedom there should not be any issue but the law is not based on ideals in that way. it based on everything that went wrong in the past.

If the 'more powerful' -that for example used to be kings and their networks, or dictators and their networks, and at this moment in time many great thinkers seem to have a firm believe the multinationals are just that now. And they do test the borders of international law and human rights with great force- if they do not do anything harmful now, it doesn't mean they will not think of something in the future we couldn't have guessed now. It's the nature of things that constructed our conditions today, to ensure individual freedom. Privacy is one of them.

An example today may be that I could not have guessed that it would be possible to even send information when not connected. But the statement is there in the user 'agreement'.

I do not have a network administrator that stands at the gates of my virtual private place so because the need to agree with this statement if I want to use your DJ solution from A to Z (which I repeat I thought I chose and paid for), Pioneer can now connect my name, ip address and registered gear that has a unique ID from the moment it is produced.

I do believe my 'security' in my network is up to date, but I would like to have a choice once I open a port to your company for my reasons, I should have a choice what comes in to my virtual home and what doesn't. It seems Pioneer takes the liberty to leave that up to them.

So:

  1. today, there may not be any problem. Tomorrow there may be.

  2. the privacy of the individual has not been protected since WWII to 'test' if an individual seems to think it has a reason to hide it, which is a popular expressed view by media and other powerful people. It has been protected to prevent them having ANY insight that an individual doesn't want to share

I already get the feeling I need to defend against something. I only want a choice and a recognizable face at my port. Not someone I need to undress first costing me energy and time. As I said above, I use your solution A to Z so it seems I trust you not to abuse my home.

ShonkaiDJ 0 票
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For engineers: checkboxes are simple solutions. Installing without connecting private data too.

ShonkaiDJ 0 票
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