nightclub problem-------cdj 2000s drifting?

can anyone actually reproduce this easily at home? If so, maybe video it and post it to show exact settings, steps, songs, etc.... I have 4.05 and just tried 3 different songs, loaded up the same track on both decks, MT on, pitch at -4%, and yes, it sounded choppy here and there, but never went totally off course the entire 4 minute song, tried same tracks on different sources, SD card, usb, RB etc...... 

Maybe if someone can easily reproduce this and send all the video and possibly tracks that you do this with, Pio engineers can see whats going on and rectify it asap. Just my thought after doing multiple tests

That's the thing though BriChi, the tracks WON'T go out of sync, they just permanently sound as though they are going to.  Unfortunately too many people here don't understand that and just start whining a load of crap instead of trying to be constructive.

I'm currently trying to get hold of a pair of MK3's to do some comparisons.

And as for trying to reproduce it, I can reproduce it every time I turn MT on...

Yeah, I definitely hear the imperfections when MT is on, And here and there it definitely sounds "off", BUT the track never falls out of sync to the point that I have to correct it, If I try and correct it each time I hear a small MT mess up,  then yes, I would be on the job wheel the entire song, If I just leave it alone, it does stay in sync. Definitely need some adjustment IMO

What up Pulse & Gavin, I'm trying the loop feature with MT and without it right now and I'm not hearing any problems at all!! Good job PIONEER, still love my CDJ-2000!!!! 

Thing is BriChi, when I mix, I aim for perfection - if I hear the slightest mismatching of beats in the headphones, I'm going to correct it and adjust the tempo for it, if necessary.  With these MT issues - and Marian's video example in the recently closed thread demonstrated this perfectly - the beats are actually moved out by MT, and then moved back in, and generally moved around the spots where they should be.  This means you have no solid, good, based on experience and skill, idea when or where the tempo is slipping out.

It's all very well and good saying "yeah just leave it, it'll be fine", but the problem is, it sounds out of sync and makes mixes sound poorly executed.  A CD I did last year suffered from this - it just sounded like particular tracks were about to spiral out of control.  In reality I was standing infront of my decks literally restraining myself not to touch the platters because the tracks were actually in sync, and it would all just "be ok".

Hence my stand on MT now as my avatar picture would suggest.

I understand I sound like a broken record (hah) but I fear that there are too many people who 1) don't understand the issue fully and 2) don't understand the implications of the issue.

 I just purchased a set of CDJ2000's 4.05, and I've noticed driffffffting.... with and without MT.  Hopefully the issue will get resolved shortly.  I'm sure Pioneer will get to the bottom of the problem.

What Mark90 says, can be easily checked at a video posted on youtube by djsounds with Cristian Varela: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ulv0Q7RF1E

Maybe my previous post on the locked thread sounded offensive (or what) to Pioneer, or even bullshit (shenanigans) to Pulse, BUT I would accept that I am telling bullshit if I was the onlyone to have such problems. The fact that I work with CDJs for years and I was a CMX-5000,CDJ-400, CDJ-1000MK3 owner and had no issues (at least not serious ones so far), proves that there is somethign wrong with the 2000s or at least with MY 2000s units.

In order to complete the test I made, I called a friend who knows the CDJ product line as well and performs in cafes and clubs frequently and on regular basis. He had the same problem while operating my CDJ-2000 units. Regardles of the MT was on or OFF, the players were suffering from slight drifting and we were trying to correct the issue by pushing the wheel forward in order to keep the tracks synched all the time. Otherwise the trainwerk was noticeable and irritating.

Perhaps it is a preoblematic batch for some players that do have drifting issues in all media formats with MT ON or OFF.

I cannot give any other logical explanation and I would love to see a newer batch in a demo showroom near where I live, in order a moment of truth comparison...

Once again, maybe it's just a batch that has these issues, maybe not.

If this helps, the batch of my units is of August 2010, and the serials start with JHMP and end in YY (JHMP******YY).

Sorry if I sounded too offensive for Pioneer or whatever, but having spent thousands of Euros in the past on Pioneer DJ products and having paid in cash 5000 Euros for a brand new set of 2x CDJ-2000s and a DJM-2000 mixer, it is expected that such units would operate flawlessly (especially for the amount paid). No?

Same here Mark90, I aim for that every mix and this should definitely be fixed, please don't think I am defending the people that do not think this is an issue. I was just giving my results from tests and I thought people meant it was drifting to the point where the tracks stayed totally off beat and went ahead of one another, whats happening is drifting back and forth, off beat, then on beat, then off beta which sucks because you are constantly pitch bending to correct instead of being able to do other things during the mix you would like to like looping, fx, etc..... Hopefully Pio finds the issue and fixes soon, At least we know, like Pulse mentioned in the now locked thread, It should be fw related being that the chip is of equal value, if not better then the 1000's

Yes that's the exact issue - impossible to live with.

As for the DSP (or whatever exactly is involved in carrying out MT) exceeding that found in the MK3, I hope that does mean that MT can be fixed by FW.  However it always comes into my mind that it has now been nearly 2 years since the 2000's came onto the market.  Although I guess we don't actually know when ( if ) Pioneer took heed of the MT complaints.

Well let's give Pioneers time to do their testing, and pin point the issue. I don't think they intend to ruin their household name in the DJ business 

just ran a series of tests here. same track on both players, 9 minutes long and no drift whatsoever. loops are super tight too, i can play a 4 bar loop on one player and a whole track on the other and no touches of the jog needed. perfectly in time. running latest firmware, playing off a usb stick, rekordbox analyzed and original beatgrids left untouched.

just to be clear, i'm not saying that any of you with problems are wrong. i'm just letting you know that it isn't affecting every unit.

also, MT was off for the most part. when turned on i got the usual extra flangey/phasey artifacts you'd expect as MT works its special cdj2000 'magic, but no drift.

Thanx for the heads up Phil.

To be honest I would like my units (or just a small percentage of units) to have this problem and not whole model line to be affcted at all, meaning that the faulty ones will be replaced by Pioneer .

I remember an issue that happened with faulty usb ports that affected some players too, so I guess it could be logical that the serious drifting issue appears only in a few units as well.

I have to check by Monday a demo showroom with a newer batch pair of 2000s in order to check how do they behave, compared to my units.

Then I think I will have enough evidence to get my units to the service for an exchange with proper ones.

Phil, can you please do another check? Try using pressed Audio CDs and no RecordBox at all (or quantizer set to on, e.t.c.).

In other words, try using the CDJ-2000s as you would use the 1000MK3s for playing Audio CDs, as standalone players with no PC attached to precalibrate the tracks.

If you still have positive results in bpm lock, then it is 10000% that my units suck and will need to be replaced.

Thanx for the heads up Phil.

To be honest I would like my units (or just a small percentage of units) to have this problem and not whole model line to be affcted at all, meaning that the faulty ones will be replaced by Pioneer .

I remember an issue that happened with faulty usb ports that affected some players too, so I guess it could be logical that the serious drifting issue appears only in a few units as well.

I have to check by Monday a demo showroom with a newer batch pair of 2000s in order to check how do they behave, compared to my units.

Then I think I will have enough evidence to get my units to the service for an exchange with proper ones.

Phil, can you please do another check? Try using pressed Audio CDs and no RecordBox at all (or quantizer set to on, e.t.c.).

In other words, try using the CDJ-2000s as you would use the 1000MK3s for playing Audio CDs, as standalone players with no PC attached to precalibrate the tracks.

If you still have positive results in bpm lock, then it is 10000% that my units suck and will need to be replaced.

Thanx in advance. :)

@panoulix - just tried 2 audio cds. same tracks on both with absolutely no problems. they were perfectly in time for all 8 minutes.

MT on sounded particularly bad though, much worse than a straight digital file. no drift though, just dreadful sound quality.

I borrowed a set of CDJ-1000 MK3s over the weekend so had chance to run a few comparisons.  I had one track track burned onto 4 CDs and tested at around -3%. 

I looked at how the 1000s phase compared to the 2000s.  All was as expected.  With MT off the phasing sound on both pairs of decks was nice, smooth and controllable.  With MT on, the random, chopping phasing came into play, again on both pairs of decks.  However, it was more aggressive on the 2000s, and the 1000s seemed to not do this at all (audibly) at certain points in the tracks.

I also did a simple mix test.  I took 2 tracks and mixed them on the 2000s with MT on and was immediately confronted with the desire to correct the mix due to sporadic beats being moved out of time by the 2000s MT.  I played devils advocate and made the 'necessary' corrections and observed the mix fail.

I did the same using the 1000s and whilst you can still tell that MT is being utilised, the effect is so much more subtle, and it is constant.  This is why it works.  You don't get random beats being shifted by such a large degree as to make it truly audible compared to the the rest of the sound.

It was strange to mix using MT and be able to enjoy a smooth, stress free mix without my mind knowing that the tracks are synced but my ears telling me different.  It was sad too, because using the 1000s again made me realise how much better the 2000s are in every way, except with MT.

@Mark, very interesting what you write in your post!

However everybody who likes to mix music with cdjs has different style and way of using these machines.

I am not saying that cdjs are crap. 2000 is an unbelievable piece of equipment but the service, really its crap.

These machines need to be updated because its computer related.

I learned to mix using cassettes and a 2 crappy line in mixer.

I am 32 years old, never been a proffesional dj because mainly is my "minor" job. 

I have studied computers and there is one thing I can tell for sure..

If you start to mix using a computer, even if you only use it to analyse your tracks, you arrive to digital world.

When you mix using Pioneer cdj2000s you expect from Pioneer who you bought your cdjs to be firm and quick in updating the 2000s,

because you bought the TOP!

In past I wanted to buy 2 turntables.

I paid a few more pounds and bought the best. I still have them!

Same thing is with cdjs.

I want the best from it and they need to fix it or at least keep me updated... if you know what I mean :)

I tottally agree with you ^^

Hi, I have been using my CDJ-2000's (ver 4.05) without any problems regarding drifting... using Audio CD's on Vinyl mode with or without MT. :)

@ Pulse

I made a test , i posted the results in the other post . I locked the post !

I'll post it again!!!

    I took a track (Rodrigo Laffertt - Amuleto), original bpm 124, and raised the tempo by 2.40, so the new bpm was 127.00

I played the track 2 times at 127, once with MT off , the other time with MT on. Both times i recorded the output of my mixer into cubase 5.

I took 34 snapshots between the bars 231-264 of the track, one snapshot for each bar. I've arranged them in order and made a short movie.

Here is the link to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIxyCpfsyB8

The top track is recorded with MT off, the bottom one is recorded while MT was turned on.

Conclusion :

The decks tend to slow down, after a while tries to correct itself by speeding up for a short time

This is misleading for the djs, they always need to adjust for staying in sync, first time to speed up, then to slow down one of the decks.

@ Pulse

I'm looking forward for your reaction

I also recommend you to use a software for tests, a software that lets u record and analyze the output of the hardware that the people are complaining

about. This way you will know if there is a real problem or not.

This was just one of the "easy to run" tests that can be done in order to verify the decks.

Now it looks like everybody complaining about the drifting is right!

I'm sure there is a turmoil in the tempo of the tracks even when the MT is turned off! I cannot run a new test at this time, i hope that you or the pioneer engineers will do it and solve the problem!

I use FW 4.05

Thanks

@MarianEugen  Hi, have you tried using this software same track with MT on a CDJ-1000 mk3? Thanks!

that really is very clear marian, thanks for posting. there's really no mystery as to what the problem is here.

a constant, reliable playback speed is such a fundamental part of beatmatching, its hard to understand why the problem ever existed in the first place, nevermind not being fixed 2 YEARS after release.

it's a bit like finding your new car speeds up a bit randomly or brakes a bit whenever it decides. it makes you think you can't drive properly anymore and undermines your confidence in a premium product.

@ sl1200ltd

No

Unfortunately i don't have any mk3's around here, neither the guys at the club.

Day 747 (since release cdj 2000):

We all agree => PIONEER FIX THE GOD DEM MT!!!

The time has come...

I take back what i said, I got trained to mix all close bpm's  (basically in the same bpm+/1.) as soon as you change it's done., just like the videos, and the bigger the difference in bpm, the bigger the MT tries to warp. meaning, if you switch both bpms at the straight, they aren't ever going to sync.   

So do I get any recognition for being the first to suggest quantified mixer effects and inform you about the MT issue?  Didn't think so..  Seeing how you deleted the past...thanks. 

p.s. If you think we don't believe you are paid to do this, you're insane.  And really, you told us that pioneer is garbage, which i don't believe.  so which is it, garbage? or you get paid to be here?  which is it?

Screw you guys for not replying.  pleased tell me you were in ibiza and couldn't respond.  b/c pioneer will garbage itself. (garbage the verb)

Fix MT before you put out another product.  It's maddening, because you're the best, but so was Dell at one point.

@MarianEugen, thanks a lot for your time to record it! The problem exists and pioneer should fix it asap.

@ Phil 909, regarding your reply of Sep-30:

"just tried 2 audio cds. same tracks on both with absolutely no problems. they were perfectly in time for all 8 minutes"

Of course there are no problems mixing 2 identical tracks together with MT on, because the firmware algorithm "transforms" both audio tracks in exactly the same way. So when the beats are shifted in time, you can't hear it as it happens on the 2 identical tracks  simultaneously.

@ MarianEugen, nice job! Your test/recording visualizes what we hear during beat mixing with MT on. On a short term the beats will be out of sync, on a long term the average result is still in sync. So naming this phenomenon "drifting" is a bit confusing, but I don't have a better word for it myself :)

@ Pioneer mods, please take this test in consideration as a non-subjective proof of what is going wrong with MT.

I also would like to see (hear) this solved!

@MarianEugen great work in capturing this issue.  Pioneer folks can add a simple test to the QA process by creating a click track wav/aif file and running it against a metronome into two channels of an oscilloscope.  Taps in 16ths or 32nds would probably be the most revealing, as I hear the most issue with syncopation on breaks tracks around 2% pitch offset with MT on.  To date I've avoided harmonically mixing certain tracks with such an offset that have complementary syncopation since MT makes the result sound really sloppy;  MT off, the syncopation sounds awesome but the pitching horrible.  MT on, their in key but OMG the rhythm sounds like crap.  Not shoes in the dryer, but really sloppy, like drunk sloppy, and no fiddling with the platter fixes it.

MT enabled on tracks that are rhythmically simple seems to be fine, which would indicate that the algorithm is suspect.  Based upon this, and the youtube video seems to confirm that the algorithm works by shifting spaces, rather than a continuous phase re-sampling technique method.  The selected technique may have been intended to avoid resampling-related subharmonic coloration, or it might have to do with intellectual property (patents, etc.) which may be violated.  In any case, there is much room for improvement as there are many devices and softwares that appear to 'get it right'

If it were up to me, I'd run with MT on all the time and keep songs in their original key.  It would give me access to a much broader library when programming a set, and allow me to do most of the front-end work at my PC workstation and worry more about performance.  As it stands today, I program a set, then practice it out on my 2k's and inevitably there are one or two tracks that simply will not fit due to MT moving things around (sounds great out of the PC with the same monitors, BTW.)  Yes, I've gone so far as to resample certain songs in the PC to get the target tempo because I wanted *that* track at that point in the flow and not sound like S#!+.

@deAI - no, that's not right. i'm not playing the same track, from the same point, at the same time so the effects of MT are not the same. 

when you engage MT you can clearly hear the normal (non MT) phasing effect suddenly start to sound really messy as MT shifts one track forward and the other backwards. try it for yourself.

I think the true bottom line is this.....

If everyone is familiar with programs like Ableton Live, then they should have a keen understanding for how much CPU power it takes to run a "warping engine."  In Ableton, they have several choices for the warping setting.  The most basic method simply speeds up or slows down the audio to match tempo, but this method includes the expect shift in pitch.  The Complex mode preserves the pitch while altering the tempo, and is more akin to the Master Tempo mode that Pioneer is attempting.

My point is that when you run Complex mode in Ableton Live, the CPU load to the computer goes through the roof.  It takes up a lot more of the CPU capacity to run in Complex mode.  I have sincere doubts that the CPU being used in a CDJ-2000 player is anywhere near the power of the CPU in a modern laptop computer like a MacBook Pro.  Therefore, I have doubts that Pioneer can enable a warping engine that is anywhere near as good as what we find in Ableton Live.

Master Tempo, in my opinion, is and always has been a useless feature which should be disabled.  I really do wish Pioneer would eliminate the feature altogether.