nightclub problem-------cdj 2000s drifting?

Fuse.  The CDJ-1000 MK3 managed it perfectly fine.  MT on the CDJ-2000 is a great example of the age-old advice:  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Since Pioneer is selling something that does not work the action I am taking today on is  preparing a petition for consumers court here. We have a tight law about a company that sells things that do not work properly! Deadline for me! I will get my money back plus some more from damages caused by all the way Pioneer treats their customers and for all the trouble their deffective product caused me. If Pulse and his fellows are allowed to talk for Pioneer here then Pioneer will have to answer for that too. I have a negative feedback from their direct support and also from this forum. Such a lot of paper to feed a petition. Will take me some time but then I will get again a good pair of TTs and this time I will choose timecoded big biscuits.

Such a sure win on court since the tests i did here following Marians model shown same problem with MT OFF!!!!!!! It took me a while. It seems not to happen with every track (don't ask me why!!!). I will post on Youtube soon (like I did when I fixed the jogwheel problem by myself and Pulse deleted the link so stay tuned and be fast!). Such a shame for a so called "top" cdj. Problems one after the other! And all we get back when presenting problems here is disesteem from the forum moderators and Pioneer itself.

@DJ Cello> I'm with you bud, I feel your pain. Let me know where to sign!!!

@Fuse:

Warping algorithms (actually resampling and transform algorithms) are easily performed on many DSP platforms with minimal overhead complexity because the architecture of a DSP is designed to perform such functions, hence their name "Digital Signal Processor."  These are quite difficult to perform on general purpose CPUs because what is done in one clock cycle on a DSP takes several to 10's of clock cycles even on today's advanced CPUs.

At issue here, is apparently a new DSP is used on the new CDJs which required a complete rewrite of the algorithms used in MT.  Being a DSP systems engineer, I recognize immediately the pitfalls of a rewrite.   In many cases, original code is written in assembly language (the lowest order language that is human readable) by an expert who has moved on, so the expertise is lost, and assembly of even the same manufacturer of DSP is not even remotely compatible with a newer family from that same manufacturer.  Typically, a decision is made to use a new algorithm rather than rewrite the original because a rewrite would be too costly.  I believe we are dealing with this overall scenario: A new algorithm written in a higher-order language by a talent pool with a different skill set.  The skill set issue would also explain the lack of QA's ability to recognize and replicate the issue, despite a growing mountain of feedback stating otherwise.

There is another troubling issue with the response scenario that has played out: Contempt for the customer.  This is the element of denial, assigning blame for the product issue on customer misuse.  In my experience, this culture is toxic to an organization and is indicative of a serious managerial issue and typically proceeds to alienation of the customer base and ever declining quality levels if not corrected as it tends to have a chilling effect on user feedback and issues fester over longer and longer periods of time.  I know this because it happened to my company and it took concerted effort and over two years to repair the cultural issues.  Hope Pioneer management watches these boards and gets a clue before it progresses into something more serious than it already is.

Wow folks, calm down.  I am not here to blame anyoine on this issue, but to gather your thoughts and experiences and report back to the powers that be with what you have said.  The last thing any of us (Pulse/Gavin/Me) are doing or saying is anti-customer, or meant to offend antone here.  Pioneer values it's customers and has this forum in placew to help those customers.

I will be Emailing Japan after I leave the forums today and asking them to look at these complaints.  Also, do we ever find that some issues are "operator error", yes, but there can also be other factors at work when a problem arrises. 

If you can start by adjusting the platter tension up to mthe heavier side when using MT, you may find this will help out, worth trying if you have had an issue with MT drifts.

Thank you,

djjay

@ Cello, there is no issue with MT off.  Stop polluting the issue please.

@Pope, that is a very, very believable scenario.

@ Jay, your points are fair and noted, and I see what you're getting at with the platter tension, however the platter isn't an issue where the MT issue is concerned.  MT will audibly shift a beat, you will hear it and adjust, MT will put subsequent beats back in 'the right' place, you will have to re-adjust heavily, then MT will shift a beat again... Cue catapulting and a nasty mix.

The platter tension will help if you have MT off, as the reduced motion will keep audible pitch bending to a minimum.

As for user error - of course it exists.  However for a high percentage of these MT complaints, you're dealing with experienced DJs who have been doing this for a long, long time on all sorts of hardware, with a likelihood most of it being Pioneer in recent years.  It reminds me a little bit of a Snooker tournament that happened a year ago or so - the professionals stopped half match and both complained that the cue ball was under weight and not performing to their exacting standards.  To observers nothing seemed wrong, but on weighing the ball there was a microscopic discrepancy, so it was replaced and they continued.

@ Mark, there is an issue with MT when its OFF as well.

I believe that became more noticeable with firmware 4.04. Its not as big as when MT is ON, but it exists.

I meant there is an issue with the tempo when MT is off as well.

I agree with Dream Treez !

I noted that there is also an issuw with MT OFF on the locked thread for the 4.05 feedback.

If this does not affect all units, at least it affects some batches. Mine is of August 2000 and it surely affects both of my units after long tests I made.

Another user also mentioned that thsi does not happen all the time especially with some tracks. This is also true, as I tried to mix some pressed Audio CDs and had no issues with MT OFF (after I switched on my units). But when I pushed the MT on button everything got f*cked up, no matter if the players were playing with MT ON or MT OFF.

@DJ Cello > Your YouTube video was removed because it violates the forum policies of providing instruction on modifying or disassembling Pioneer equipment whether for repair or otherwise.

Yes I did it not want to have to wait forever for a 9 months old equipment to go and come back from authorized Pioneer assistence. Its a problem that affects a LOT of people and all I wanted was to help (especially those who dont have guarantee over their products anymore and will pay loads to fix something a good product shouldnt present in such short period of time) since its something pretty easy to fix.

I believe you had ALSO a good reason for deleting my post about gathering customer forces to ask Pioneer for a possible option on rolling back firmwares since these last ones are giving us so much trouble. It wouldnt be deadly for Pioneer allowing ppl to rollback to 4.01 since it would be an OPTION of the cdjs owners: to use the firmware you feel comfortable with.

You ALSO deleted another post I made mentioning pitch, mt and other problems. This not to mention all the many many ones from other guys I saw vanishing or being locked.

Resuming: any post that goes over a big problem that you cant solve blaming the end user is deleted or locked.

I do mix for a long long time now to hear from another guy (that doesnt even know me) that maybe I dont know how to beatmatch tracks. I really would love to believe that its my fault for being a cdj user for the first time in my life but hey, a pitch is a pitch. On cdjs or tts they are the same thing! And why didnt I feel unconfortable with 4.01? I never had any MT OFF problems with that version so I really doubt something on me changed since last firmware upgrade. And tests say it all: THE PROBLEM IS THERE and its not myself.

So check the tests before blaming other guys from not knowing how to mix. Stop denying problems do exist in a 2 years old release top cdj from Pioneer and please stop acting like a dictator cause even on middleast countries people just cant stand such behaviour anymore. We are on 2011 Pulse!

Its a fact Pioneer seems to be more busy launching new products and simply doesnt care  for a 2 years old release that never got to work properly: The CDJs 2000!! And I still cant see how people wow all the time over a product that DOES NOT DO what you paid for. Yes cause if theres ANYTHING that doesnt work on it its a FAULTY product.

WOW is my DJM800 that stands tight after years of use never giving me a single problem and that made me believe in all Pioneer products. Such a shame it is not really the way I thought...

Your other thread was removed because it was a duplicate of conversation going on here.

"Resuming: any post that goes over a big problem that you cant solve blaming the end user is deleted or locked."

That phrase says it all. A few posts of mine have been deleted as well.

This is not democratic. People here should be able to say their opinion, even if its bad or good.

All we ask as Pioneer users is respect. 

I have invested in Pioneer many times. I had cdj100, cdj800, cdj1000 and now cdj2000. 

Never had complaints about all except, cdj2000.

I tried to tell before what the problem is and you refused to listen.

Cello in previous post said something right. I could go to a lawyer and sue Pioneer for selling me faulty equipment. And not just me!

But that is not a solution, (it might be though for my pocket).

You Admins should listen to us and transfer the problem to the technicians because this is serious.

Then you should come back to us and explain what the problem is and tell us what will happen.

We must know. We are the consumers and you should consider yourself lucky that we even open your forum and write our opinion.

Not the other way around.

(I know this thread is gonna be locked soon..)

post some videos showing the issue, that may also get the point across and see whats going on

@ Pulse

My video was taken in consideration ?

You do not say nothing about it !!!

The drifting problem was proved in that video !!!

@Brichi, honestly I don't have the time and the camera to put it on top of my mixer and record. Believe me if I could do it, I would have done it.

I hear ya Dream, Just figured if anyone did, it couldn't hurt

I've spoken with the Pioneer engineers and they are working hard to investigate these Master Tempo issues.

In the meantime, there is nothing positive being gained from this, or other MT / drift related threads.  We appreciate your patience.

Note from the engineers:

Thank you for pointing out this issue.

We confirmed the Jitter is happening when MT is ON with the track pointed in this thread.

This Jitter does not happen under particular condition and varies depending on the genre of the track and settings of Tempo.

We investigated many tracks in different genres.

We are working on improvements to have this Jitter reduced right now.

Please give us more time to improve this.

Again, thank you for your understanding. 

We appreciate your patience.