CDJ 2000 firmware 4.04 pitch not same as 4.01

@ Pulse  U misunderstood me , and i think is because of my bad english, sorry.

I was pointing out the loop issue, but i was also referring to the possibility  for a more noticeable drifting in case of mixing 2 tracks and at a certain time we decide to create a short loop out of one of them (a 2 beat loop for example).

The drifting would not be noticeable in a shorter time this way (mixing one track with a 2 beat loop)?

At that moment i thought it will be a difference

Now , after paying more attention to the problem i came to think there would be no difference . The time needed for getting out of sync for mixing 2 tracks is the same as for mixing 1 track and a 2 beat loop.

Whats your opinion ?

@Marian > The loop-length issue is still a separate issue from the pitch, but thank you, I did understand.  :)

@Pulse, sorry to say this but something has changed in the pitch in last firmware. There is a difference between version 4.01 and 4.04. I felt it from first mix I did after updating to 4.04. I just wasnt sure. Now after few weeks I am sure that something has changed. The cdj responds in a different way. Dont get me wrong. Its not that I cant mix. I can still do the job. I just dont feel confident anymore in long mixes. And its not because I am getting old. I started to mix playlists that I mixed many times with previous firmware version. I know the tracks with "closed eyes" and I put my signature to this.... tracks are not locked in same way as it used to be.

Maybe you find it better this way.

PS.   I ment I dont feel "as" confident with long mixes "as" I felt with previous firmware.

I'd like to clarify:  Are we talking pitch issues here with Master Tempo on or off?

My understanding of this thread is that the alleged issue is with MT *off*.  Can someone confirm this?  I can't help but feel concerned that a multitude of people's problems are being rolled into one here and are getgting confused.

I am talking for a difference in the pitch (when MT is off) comparing with the previous firmware version. The difference is handable.

As you said when its on, MT is a shot... 

I will do a quick test this evening, but with MT off, I find the idea of issues with the pitch very difficult to accept.

I (as far as I can tell) was one of the first people on the old forums to raise question about MT.  Being incredibly picky about that problem, I'm certain to have found issue with normal mode pitch.  Unless someone can provide hardcore evidence, I'm reluctant to acknowledge this.

Well, I myself haven't noticed any problem with pitch (MT off), but find it interesting that some ppl have.

One thing I have noticed through the discussions on the forums is that many people are putting a lot of trust into the BPM output from RB analysis - which is displayed on the CDJ's. As mentioned above, this is just the result of an analysis which has pros and cons - the actual BPM of the track might differ from the one displayed, and this remark is even more true locally throughout the track as some have variable BPM's (even EDM tunes, as I have mentioned in other threads).

So when mixing two different tracks, even if the displayed BPM is the same after pitch correction, maybe the actual one is different - leading to a temporary feeling that tracks are locked whereas they aren't, and drift after some time. Anyway, mixing with ears is always the most reliable solution.

But as said, this is interesting to know what problems other folks have, and help in solving them :)

galerinha good I have to say about the problems and complaints about the MT BPM Cincronizados not as many people mention,

I am for everyone to ese problems are solved by the pioneer engenhiros. I remember a few more people so that all music has a certain range of BPM. entaum there for that pitch. vardade in the dj never has to be thinking that the perfect blend equipo fassa alone, the DJ has to show its potential as well. more thank god I say to all my 2000 naum have any problems with them, the more support those who are struggling to solve the pioneer as soon as possible.

Well, I myself haven't noticed any problem with pitch (MT off), but find it interesting that some ppl have.

One thing I have noticed through the discussions on the forums is that many people are putting a lot of trust into the BPM output from RB analysis - which is displayed on the CDJ's. As mentioned above, this is just the result of an analysis which has pros and cons - the actual BPM of the track might differ from the one displayed, and this remark is even more true locally throughout the track as some have variable BPM's (even EDM tunes, as I have mentioned in other threads).

So when mixing two different tracks, even if the displayed BPM is the same after pitch correction, maybe the actual one is different - leading to a temporary feeling that tracks are locked whereas they aren't, and drift after some time. Anyway, mixing with ears is always the most reliable solution.

Hit the nail on the head there - that is my issue and it then opens another can of worms to allow the removal of BPM so we can go back to using what matter most our ears !! This has always been my issue - I've two reported 126BPM tracks but I have to adjust - root cause incorrect analysis on RB.  

Bit of tape on my screen methinks

Can anyone say they have used Master Tempo on these decks and not had an experience with it drifting ? 

Hi i have two players on different firmware version, one is 4.00 and another is 4.04, i will test with master tempo on and off and will post the results

I have not noticed any issues with the firmware, with or without master tempo.

Maybe I'm just that awesome.  ;)

Hi there, i have tested as this

first, two songs with same native BPM, lets say 125

I incremented the pitch to 4.65%, with MT on and surprise surprise, no drifts all this at 10%u

then i put a song  at 127 BPM and incremented the pitch to 3% to match the other song and after 4 and half minutes it did not drift

So, it could be 3 things

1st, there are CDJ 2000s that have this problem and others than not, unlikely

2nd the hypersensible pitch slider moves without your notice

3rd you are relying to much on the BPM display wich is an awesome tool especially in these players but it doesnt do the work for you, the pitch indicator is far more reliable

So i hope this helps a little

Haha I like this guy...

Tarmadadj, what 3 tracks are you using to test?  I'm giong to buy them and see what I hear.

Don't forget that the MT issue is not actual drift, it is faux drift created by the MT algorithm literally moving beats slightly backwards and forwards - the resultant is that say 3 to 4 beats out of every 8 sound as if they are randomly ahead or behind.  You cannot predict which.  The tracks, technically, should never drift out of sync, they just permanently sound as if they could be drifting in both directions, all the time!

**Also, this thread is about MT off, let's not forget that!  I don't like confusing these 2 discussions, because I think the MT off discussion discredits the MT on discussion.**

Alibi - Matthew Bandy Vocal Mix

Tonga - Soul Jazz

Orlando Vaughan - Better Than Ever (Rafa Re-edit)

@Mark90 Ok i see, this is interesting because what you describe is exactly what i hear in both firmwares  and my CDJ 400s, I am pretty sure that i heard CDJ 1000s do it while clubbing. but honestly cant tell if the CDJ 2000s do it more often.

I thought that the issue was inherent of the keylock feature on every player because it has to chop the beat in frames and the algorythm has to discard some frames or add some silence in between. Even on VDJ this happened to me

Ok i will test for it tonight and if you want i can upload or link a sample track with MT ON on both players so you can hear it

That's the point though - people are up in arms about this (MT on) issue, because the CDJ-1000 MK3 didn't suffer from it anywhere near as noticably as the CDJ-2000 does.  There have been times I've wanted my MK3s back because of this, it's that bad!

But my point is, this was always the issue or is present only in the 4.04? because i only can test for that, i dont have 1000s and have only used them without MT

@Mark I agree with you all the way.

@Tarmada With cdj2000 MT (on) was always a problem and not just in 4.04.

I am only trying to say is that in version 4.01 I think two tracks when mixed were locked better than in version 4.04 (MT off)

Now i understand, i see no diference between 4.00 and 4.04 with MT OFF, and when i played with 1000s i had MT OFF because i didnt like how it distorted the songs in my 400s so i never tried it would be nice to hear a comparison between the 1000s and the 2000s

The difference between MT on the 1000 MK3 and 2000 is dumbfounding.  It's the first thing I noticed when I upgraded from 1000s to 2000s.  The beat shifting on the 2000s is so audible, you can actually pick up on the uneven lengths of time between beats.  As much as I'd like to to solidly prove my point, a side by side comparison isn't necessary for me personally, because it'd just make me angry and also be shameful for Pioneer.  Plus, many others have reported on the problem anyway.  For me it;s simple, I can mix using MT on 1000s, I cannot mix satisfactorily using MT on 2000s.

Pioneer have made improvements to MT over several updates, yet the real world difference to me is virtually nil.

Pulse et al, sorry if it sounds like I'm harping on, but just continuuing the discussion. :)

Trying to sync two records together back in the day was part of the fun and challenge of mixing. Might as well just add a "Auto Sync Button" to the players cos that's what it sounds like you all need... hahaha. Take it easy ....relax just jiving.

@ Ric Rush

  Those days are gone, if u want to get remarked u need ideas, skills and a tool which doesn't let u down. 

To be able to beat match 2 tracks doesn't mean u are a good dj, not at all. It might be the first thing u learn when u choose to becoming a dj, but that's just the beginning of a loooong journey.  To be a good dj means to have ideas and to be able to put them in practice in a very short time. If the hardware (in our case) does not help u, furthermore it gives u unwanted tasks, what is happening then ?

The tempo fader is much more a link to the past than a key feature in today's hardware. Yes, nobody wants to remove it,  we can create interesting  things with it, but do not take it as the key to the success in a dj career !!!

The most important thing is the music that u are playing, choosing the right track at the right time, the time when u choose to mix in the new track. etc.

Download a few good dj sets (Danny Tenaglia, Steve Lawler, Carl Cox) and analyze them. U will see what a good mix means.

U said "take it easy", do not worry, i'm calm, but i just can not stay without saying nothing. There are many djs who use 3 or even 4 decks at the same time, if they don't stay locked what is happening?

These guys here are talking about a hardware technical problem,  let them talk about their problems so the pioneer engineers solve it.

If u are against the evolution of the dj tools (this is what i understood from your comment)  just open a new thread and have your say.

No hard feelings, u just need to understand that if we post to many comments like yours our threads will become more blurry, we are risking  not to be taken in serious and the problems won't be solved.

@Ric - unfortunately that's where it's going.  Traktor etc. have sync buttons, and the CDJ-2000's have decimal BPM readouts.  Any kid with a bit of cash can 'be a DJ'.  They're generally terrible though.  It just makes life harder for the more skilled/passionate individuals.

@Marian - I disagree somewhat.  Are you calling beatmatching an "unwanted task"?  What a terrible attitude!  "I want to mix records but I can't be bothered to match the beats up"  Give me a break.  That kind of thinking is killing the art.

Unfortunately, whilst technology is developing in order to enhance creativity, it is also being used to simply everything involved, far too much.

And also, rather unfortunately, my argument is totally futile.  Real DJs died along with vinyl.

NO NO NO !!!! I was referring to the drifting a few people are talking about ! This is what i was calling "an unwanted task" . Don't get me wrong. Maybe i should use other word, my english isn't so good.

If u would understand my previous comment u would understand that i"m  really into using my ideas and my skills when mixing, not just  letting the devices do all the work.

I totally disagree with you when u say "DJs died along with vinyl" ? Its not true ! U could say "there are more DJs then ever, but good DJs are still just a few ". Who's good enough will take advantage of the new technology.  Having new solutions does not kill the passion, the ingenuity .

The other thing i pointed out in my previous comment  was not to jump out of topic, so lets leave place  for the comments that the pioneer agents are interested into.

Calm down calm down :p I get what everyone is saying about the Master Tempo drift thing. I was just having some fun. It doesn't happen on my 2000s though. I love my 2000s and couldn't live without them. I love the rekord box technology and take advantage of the technology fully. Although I have been using 3, 4 even 5 decks in clubs way before I had 2000s.So I understand the frustration of mixes needing to stay in sync. I've always used Master Tempo from day 1cdj 500s and never had problems? But I hope everyone gets their problems sorted so we can all be happy and creative in the mix.

I think the topic drifts a bit!!

I agree with Ric when he says "Trying to sync two records together back in the day was part of the fun and challenge of mixing".

I ve only asked if you have noticed any changes in how two tracks lock to each other, comparing firmware 4.01 and 4.04. (MT off) 

To me there is a difference and I ve noticed the moment I updated. At first I wasnt sure but after a couple of weeks mixing I start to convince myself that something has changed. Dont get me wrong. I love my cdjs, just like my sl-1200s and xone and never play with computer or traktor.

When MT is on, I have to agree with Mark. It realy is a joke.   

I dont know what pioneer did in this FW because i have one CDJ on 4.00 and other on 4.04 and dont notice anything, i will test for that with MT OFF later

I have always used the "push-pull" on the platter during a mix.  I learned it from watching awesome DJs at clubs do it, so I am just used to making adjustments.  The issue will be spoken of this week while Sir Pulse is knee deep in Ebi Burgers and cans of Georgian Coffee!!!  I'm sure more info will arrive here, but in the mean time please remember that WE need to replicate these concerns and often we can't.

If you're going to DJ Expo please come by the booth and Pulse and I will gladly go over this with our players, but it doesn't seem to happen with them?