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[OPEN] Rekordbox 3 need Kuvo account - privacy issue

forcing Djs to have an account on Kuvo and share tracks name isn't it a bit against privacy law?

maybe I am missing a point about Kuvo, but I don't want to share any information about me and my sets.

can Pioneer tell me that my privacy is protected enough?

legally speaking if I buy some pioneer hardware I should have all the rights to use rekordbox, that is basically a music database arranger for our pioneer gear, without sharing any info on the web about me.

am I wrong?

 

John Hagen

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@SKDJ > I've read through all your posts, but I can't discern what exactly it is you have a problem with within the EULA. Is this simply a privacy concern or do you have a specific complaint?

Pulse 0 votes
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@SKDJ > Based on a simple search of your username in Google, I was able to find the PartyFlock site with your email address, from there I was able to search a lot more. For someone who's so concerned about privacy, you certainly seem to have a lot of information open.

Pulse 0 votes
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Dear Pulse, I know people who would feel threatened by the simple things you say you do but I think to me it is off topic (which isn't a hot topic anymore). If you want my phone number I'd be happy to provide it. (Not through Google though).

I......am not the issue. I have to admit I expected my latest post to be easy to take for something one would like to misunderstand.

Pioneer is the issue and their user 'agreement' that I would call an inconvenient and unlawful step I 'have to' agree to, to get the stuff I paid for to work in the way it was advertised. You don't seem to be able to get ahead of me. If you read it again, it is very 'popular' to mistaken the attack of an unwilling individual as a defense of privacy.

Please read it again or just stick with the technical issues. In this new world of sharing (Bill Gates and Steve jobs wrote a lot about what ICT would mean to the world in the eighties and sharing was one of them) I share not only information but also what I have learned in my life, to improve pioneers (and now two of them are mine) products as you of all people should know.

The issue is privacy, again, and that is not an easy issue. Technically for engineers as you keep referring to as the people in Japan you talk to it could be an easy issue though. Simply allow people choices what to share. Facebook had to learn from going to court to add more tick boxes and options.

That is all I am saying.

Looking at your picture and name: it's kind of logic you Google me and I don't Google you ;-) Do we understand each other on a normal level again?

ShonkaiDJ 0 votes
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By the way Pulse, you may want to direct your attention to the person who started the topic and found some people willing to share their concerns if you can't follow the answers I give your colleagues. I just mean to take part.

No options, not enough tick boxes...simple, -I and I think we- would like to see more of them while installing and or setting up our software. They should provide us with the option to understand what we are sharing.

ShonkaiDJ 0 votes
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I have the following questions to pioneer:

  1. Does rekordbox collect data from my local computer and send it (anonymous) to pioneer? E.g. information about my iTunes Collection if importing it into rekordbox.

  2. The above mentioned privacy setting is only referring to publish data via kuvo. It is not a setting where I can deactivate (anonymous) data collection from pioneer about my work in rekordbox. I understand that this data is not going to be published when set to "private". Nevertheless anonymous data is collected by pioneer. Is it possible to deactivate this funktion and where in the application?

3.Is the data collection also implemented in rekordbox 2?

oderschiffer 0 votes
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https://register.pioneerdj.com/kuvo/privacy2_en.html

"We record certain information and store it in log files when you interact with our Services. We collect information about your interactions with the Service, including which clubbers, playlists, tracks, clubs, and DJs you follow or like. We also collect technical data such as internet protocol (IP) address, MAC address, or other device addresses or identifiers, as well as browser type, internet service provider, URLs of referring/exit pages, operating system, date/time stamp, and your mobile carrier." ...

"Information from third party services: We may obtain information from third parties such as our partners and service providers, and combine it with other information we collect from you."...

"We may use the information we collect for a variety of purposes, including to: ...

  • Monitor and analyze trends, usage, and activities in connection with our Services; and
  • Investigate and prevent unauthorized access to our Services and other illegal activities; ..."

"Aggregate Data: We may share aggregate information that does not identify you with third parties."...

!We may disclose your information (including your personal information) to a third party if (a) we believe that disclosure is reasonably necessary to comply with any applicable law, regulation, legal process or governmental request,..."

oderschiffer 0 votes
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https://register.pioneerdj.com/kuvo/privacy2_en.html

"You may choose to keep your profile private through your account settings. DJs can also use rekordbox settings to set tracks as private before playing tracks.** If you mark your profile or tracks as private, we will still receive information about your profile and tracks**, but they will not be viewable by other KUVO users."

oderschiffer 0 votes
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I've been silent on this, but wanted to say:  I have sidelined RB3 due to it's dependency on a cloud-based set of resources.  To require such a link for the software to support hardware that otherwise does not need such functionality is asinine.  To jeopardize any of my workflow to a series of external servers and account management is untenable. Yes, I realize future pioneer products will require RB3, I simply will not purchase them if they do.  Plenty of other fish in the sea...

pope 0 votes
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thanx pope:

Could you tell us which other fish you´re going for? I don´t want to use a big screen on my set to browse through my tracks. So the XDJ R 1 seemed perfect, cause of browsing via iPhone on the set.

oderschiffer 0 votes
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I'm still shocked on how these guys think it is legal for them to force me to tick a tickbox, that I need to do because i payed for their product and 'professional workflow', which is then is used to break and enter my private domain, watch my behavior, analyze my possessions/ inventory sell my personal data to the music industry and take action of any kind based on that forced entry and theft.

There should be a worldwide court that sanctions on such behavior. I do not read any advantage for the costumer that bought the product other than a very thin layer of chrome that will only start shining when you're already in the spotlights. I'm sure that what you are doing is illegal. It's like selling me a car, and only open up the turbo option in the cars computer if I sign a contract that will allow you to always have a copy of the cars key. But before you tell me about the extra autograph, you give me the key, let me pay the money and let me drive away.

You can be sure that after a little while I will realize the turbo doesn't work. And then you tell me.

I heard a lot about the Japanese culture. This seems to be a little bit in the line of just that but I was never there so I can't judge on that. But in a European court this will not hold. I hope you realize you are stealing from a private domain and already making money out of the theft. Surely I can't prove it. But you admit to the theft you are committing. Surely you have only good intentions, but it is way out of line from a privacy kind of view.

ShonkaiDJ 0 votes
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I understand that every product needs to be financed in one way or another. So in the most cases, it is a contradiction if search engines or apps are "for free". So these products have to be financed by commercials or data collection. Sadly the latter type is not very obvious or transparent for users nowadays.

So I can´t understand that such expensive high quality gear needs to be co-financed by data collection. The way I sort my private recordbox is my own intellectual property. When I´m playing I share my thoughts with the audience and get paid for it (or not).

I don´t think this is a point of Japanese culture. Look at car companies worldwide now selling cars that collect data about the way you drive and send it to the company "to improve their products".

Mr. Hawtin is praising the new technique in the KUVO commercial as the future of DJing!  Did anyone find Richie Hawtin as a user in KUVO??? Surely not and you never will! Imagine Mr. Hawtins personal inventory is sent to Pioneer!

OK, Pioneer hardware is not for free but the software rekordbox is for free. But I´m ready to pay money for an application called rekordbox as long as my data remains my data.

So Pioneer: If you need to finance rekordbox sell me a software. I´m going to pay for it. I don´t need this kind of "free" impenetrable stuff.

@SKDJ: The car you mentioned is a Ferrari Turbo, advertised and sold as a Ferrari TURBO!

oderschiffer 0 votes
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afaik one needs to connect to kuvo only once to activate rekordbox, after that one can work offline on his/her music and probably even delete the kuvo account so here is a very easy workaround. another workaround is to keep on using rb 2.

anyway, i agree with all you, this thing is a major pain in the neck, it's threading in a legal grey area, it's very hostile and intrusive against the customers.

to be honest I don't think that pio has the capability to analyze this data and they are not even collecting it, the tons of legal disclaimers are there only to cover their backs for future developments of the system. however they might collect this data and sell it to somebody else.

personally i'm very much against kuvo, it's something that i don't need and i don't want. it's a negative thing not only for djs but mainly for the club goers: another excuse to stick your nose in your iphone instead of having fun with the people around you and enjoy the music.

regarding the whole discussion of registering, i think it's really stretching the boundaries of what can be asked in exchange for a free service: i can get drivers and support softwar (scanning, photo retouching, picture library management...huge programs way more complex than rb by the way) without registering for any printer or digital camera in this world, whether it's Nikon, Canon, Sony etcetera (all japanese companies by the way), so I do not see any valid reason for registering.

furthermore, no rb is not an optional nice thing to have. for a cdj, it's essential like a driver for a printer. without rekordbox i would never ever buy a cdj/xdj nexus. why would i want to spend extra money for a big color display that will show me no waveform??? without rb waveform i can get the same thing from other companies for a much lower price.

Julia O 0 votes
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dear Julia O. I wish we could like our comments. I would have liked yours three times :-)

ShonkaiDJ 0 votes
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Thanks a lot!

I´m not sure if the application RB3 itself is not sending data. The moment I drag my iTunes library into the rekordbox application for example. OK, let´s do this with LAN and WLAN turned off. But who knows my computer doesn´t send my tracklist as soon at it is online the next time?

I´m bored of reading EULAs of every country pioneer thinks of sending data to.

One should bring a 17" screen on the next concert or gig and hold it in front of all those iPhone photographers and KUVO users ;-]

oderschiffer 0 votes
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Good one, Oderschiffer...I got a good chuckle out of that one.

pope 0 votes
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oderschiffer:  Sorry, I missed your question about the 'other fish'.  I use or have used Traktor (out)  and Ableton (in the studio) but next year I'm probably go with a unified Live workflow and be done with it.  I've loved the simplicity of rocking to a gig with a thumb drive, but overall my workflow needs to consolidate and simplify...and a controller/tablet is pretty light and reliable enough (finally) to get the job done.

pope 0 votes
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@oderschiffer > Pioneer has provided some answers to your questions:

Q1. Does rekordbox collect data from my local computer and send it (anonymous) to pioneer? E.g. information about my iTunes Collection if importing it into rekordbox. 

A1. No, rekordbox does not collect any data from your local computer to send it to Pioneer.

Q2. The above mentioned privacy setting is only referring to publish data via kuvo. It is not a setting where I can deactivate (anonymous) data collection from pioneer about my work in rekordbox. I understand that this data is not going to be published when set to "private". Nevertheless anonymous data is collected by pioneer. Is it possible to deactivate this funktion and where in the application? 

A2. After registering an account for rekordbox, you can start using rekordbox and also will be able to login into KUVO.com and edit your profile. 

Your track information will be public on KUVO.com only when you 

1) login to KUVO.com and enter Profile Name and Country, 

2) perform at a KUVO installed club, and 

3) make your track public. 

Only if all the above 3 conditions are met, your information will become public. 

If you do not perform at a KUVO installed club, your information will never been collected by any parties including Pioneer.

Q3. Is the data collection also implemented in rekordbox 2? 

A3. Yes, rekordbox 2.2 and later supports KUVO. 

Pulse 0 votes
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to Pioneer:

wasn't it better to give us the choice to use Kuvo or not?

I don't get you Pioneer, just making everything more complex.

hey, we just want to play music and have fun, we are djs not nerds...and we are "paying" for the hardware, don't forget it.

 

Thanks anyway to listen to customers.

John Hagen 0 votes
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So, what happens to Rekordbox and it's database if someone hacks my KUVO account, and the account gets disabled? (we know that *never* happens;)

 

pope 0 votes
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If there were to be a security breach, Pioneer would likely globally reset all passwords and require re-authentication by way of an email.

Pulse 0 votes
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I also do not get y  Pioneer, that may make everything more complex.

Bob Eric 0 votes
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here's my issue. i'm the kind of guy that if you look through my record bins you'll find tons of recodd labels that have stickers over them and or markers blotting out the information abou tthe track as i do not play what was just released on beatport and tend to dig deep for tracks people tend not to know so i can own my style of sound andnot be the same as every other slomo on the decks now rekordbox is trying to force me to share my digital track selections with everyone when i'm still pondering ways i can make it so you can't find out my selections while i can still know which track is which, this does not sit well with me. i do not like the fact that i have ot register and share my track info and i really do not like the thought that one day i may recieve threats of copy right infringement law suits for playing original tracks that are produced by friends and happen to lack i.d. tags saying it was bought by itunes or whatever companies pioneer decides are the only legal sellers of digital music as i have received such threats for music i produced myself that did not contain ANY samples of any kind. maybe i'm paranoid or maybe i have very little faith in teh established system of things but so far i see some pretty henious abuse of powers going on with in the realms of pioneer forums and the gear we have decided to pay top dollar to beta test for you with very little of what i see as concern for our concerns, mind you i have not been in this forum for over a year but i stopped coming in here when i started noticing people being threatened to be banned for asking simple things like "can we please revert our cdj 2000 nexus's to a previous firmware that is more reliable for how i use these decks" and now your forcing us to join social sharing websites if we want your services, this is some serious uncouth actions i.m.o. i personally am removing rekordbox3 before finishing installing it and going to continue using 2.2.3 while i look to see if there's a better option available to me.

honest truth is i expected pioneer to give better costumer care and concern as we do spend a LOT of money and spend a lot of words making sure you people stay the in the "industry standard" however the costumer care i see makes me wonder how u got there and how long your going to stay there.

in the day and age of ddos for hire and s#!t like that i personally do not see why anyone would think forced registration and forced tracking of our movements and actions would be anything any D.J. would want.

fahlawfulls 0 votes
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i appologize if in my emotional state i have upset anyone involved with this forum. i just lost my best friend and not only did i help him set up and figure out his cdj 2000 nexus's when he bought them(pretty much right after they came out) but as of his passing last week i have now inherited them and am trying to re-figure out rekordbox to organize a bunch of his personal productions in order to not have to try and mix them at his celebration of life via the miracle of sync and noticing that rekord box now has some interesting privacy content regarding the need for kuvo, such as my parents may be a source of personal interest that you folks seek for better understanding of how i use the gear, well that bothers me and my personal concerns about privacy... honestly i could barely read that privacy agreement due to how funky it sat with me and instantly shut down and removed rekordbox3 from my computer. i'm thankful i still had version 2 on it but would love to know alternative options to make it so i can have full features unlocked form these decks without handing out unknown amounts of personal info to  unknown collectors for unknown purposes beyond the gifting it to third party sources as openly stated...  although i do find it funny nobody in the forum involved with pioneer seems to see why some of the end users have concerns.

fahlawfulls 0 votes
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It may be clear already I fully agree with fahlawfulls. this points out concerns very clearly. I would like to say I am an idealist and I have made many informative mistakes because of that. I was also an idealist thinking costumer-care would have been replaced by Pioneer in exchange for "artist"-care. And the former speaker also points out perfectly how typical and unique ones workflow will be being that Artist.

Thinking about this 'artists instead of costumer' label the marketing departments of the dance industry brought out in the recent years, I realized that it is the managers, the arthouses and the bigger companies that have to make sure the Artists will generate Big Money for them without reference to what the Artist will make. I feel a shift has taken place where it is not the Artist anymore in the number one seat. It's the costumer again. And I'm not sure the 'end user' (artist), will be the most profitable costumer.

If I'm right about that, the privacy issues will surface sooner then we in this forum can think of. And we will prove to have been naive again.

ShonkaiDJ 0 votes
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The record industry is changing as is the DJ industry.  The ability to tell the world where you're playing and what you're playing is a new concept and with it goes the issues mentioned above.  We greatly appreciate the feedback so that we can pass this on to the right people.  I completely understand where everyone is coming from, but my personal experience with most (read majority) DJs has been positive and they have embraced the KUVO idea. I take this seriously in that you folks have explained with such passion and eloquence your side.

 

As always my role here is to let Pioneer Japan know what is being said and felt, but please understand that what is being "felt" for a DJ company is new ground.  This used to be about "which RCA do I use" and "My CDJ won't play my burned discs", now the technology has created an entirely new surface for us to deal with and explore.  Thank you for patience in receiving an answer as well as your support and well thought out statements above.

 

djjay  

Jay 0 votes
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Thanks for that answer djjay. Yes I do realize now that you mention it how that part is changing now. I've been working in the broadcast industry for quite a few years now as a technician. We have seen our support change in the same way and it may even be changed in an ever quickly evolving way as we speak. The technical part of technique has become so much simpler in a way, that issues and flaws have become more complex to recognize and resolve. That is also what this forum is intended to be part of. And using that technique in a way that never had it's interest yet. Big Data? In fact. This may have been quite the opposite when pioneer was still selling dual head auto reverse double cassette decks. :-) I remember 'the music industry' was not happy with those little machines.

One thing has not changed. Numbers. If it's about money you want them to be high and if it's about opposition you want them to be low. A good way to work with the last mentioned is a survey. That may be an interesting way to move on if you want to use your network as a connected network to drain data from. It could give pioneer a good insight in what it's network of 'users' (not costumers anymore) is willing and not willing to provide and their motivation to do so. I think that would be a perfect instrument to fine tune the use of this new technique that we never asked for and doesn't seem to have any value to some of us. One might say: we never bought it but yet it out there, created, developed, a free give away?

So I challenge the guys you pass this forum information to, to find out now that you have all our email addresses, to send us a survey that may support the idea that 'most of us' really want this give-away. And even better: if we want it, how we would want it to be. The option for example to 'close the line' to your private space for example when you feel the need not to be connected. Maybe 'most of us' are not at all against that tweak either. Because that is the strange thing about the knowledge we get from this new world. Things may not be opposite, they may well complement each other.

ShonkaiDJ 0 votes
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Just a few notes (some of these addressing @fahlawfulls' comments):

・rekordbox itself does not distribute any track information in your computer directly to the Internet.

・Only when tracks are played in a DJ booth of the clubs* where the KUVO system is installed, the track information will be distributed to the public via the Internet.  (*Clubs shown on the KUVO CLUB MAP: currently 330 clubs around the world.)

Also, you can choose in the KUVO settings whether you will publicize your track information or keep them secret.

For further details, please see the System Configuration Guide from the link below. 

http://kuvo.com/kuvoweb/docs/configulation_guide/ConfigurationGuide.pdf

We sincerely hope those who have concerns on the KUVO service will understand the genuine purpose of KUVO: KUVO is designed to help DJs enhance their promotion opportunities.

Pulse 0 votes
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my concern is the fact i am now being forced to register for yet another network i do not feel a need or desire to be a part of in order to use the software i have to use to unlock the full features of the hardware that was bought and paid for(and not with a small amount of money at that). it does not feel like costumer care but it feels more like the possibility of being forced into an information share(all it takes is a tweak to a future update) and while u assure us that's not the way it is i see a lot of private info snatching and privacy breaches happening on a global scale and that, personally, bothers me. not everyone feels a NEED for more promo, although some of us do, some of us prefer the background and the enjoyment of life and life style over the fame and the supposed glory.

my other concern about it is the simple fact i see no possible gains from joining that network beyond being able to use rekordbox, due to that simple fact we've been using these cdj 2000 nexus's as midi controllers/sound cards for traktor as most my friends already have their beat grids done in traktor and it saves the hassles of redoing it although it does not unlock full features of the decks....

fahlawfulls 0 votes
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