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[OPEN] Rekordbox 3 need Kuvo account - privacy issue

forcing Djs to have an account on Kuvo and share tracks name isn't it a bit against privacy law?

maybe I am missing a point about Kuvo, but I don't want to share any information about me and my sets.

can Pioneer tell me that my privacy is protected enough?

legally speaking if I buy some pioneer hardware I should have all the rights to use rekordbox, that is basically a music database arranger for our pioneer gear, without sharing any info on the web about me.

am I wrong?

 

John Hagen

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@fahlawfulls > You're concerned about privacy yet your registration here on the forums provides Pioneer with the same amount of information your registration with rekordbox does; your "name" and an email address. After you register rekordbox, there is no communication to Pioneer. Pull up a firewall and see for yourself.

The KUVO functionality allows you to have your tracks posted to the KUVO network ONLY when DJing at a club that has a KUVO gateway in place and ONLY when you haven't marked yourself as private and your tracks aren't private.

You don't _need _to register if you don't want to use the free software, but if you do, all it takes is your "name" and email address, and that's all Pioneer ever gets.

Now take off the tin foil hat and get back to mixing. ;)

Pulse 0 votes
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i got this tiny bit of a production work to finish before i can consider hopping on the decks ;)

fahlawfulls 0 votes
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@Pulse. although we had a very positive encounter again yesterday (thanks for answering my questions there), you still prove not to understand what this privacy issue is all about. You also do seem to think your software is free. There is no such thing as free. And you bet WE are the ones paying for it. Even if my invoice only mentions the hardware. Which is not even very unusual. So it would be nice not to repeat that again. We work just like you to pay the rent and to pay for a perfect workflow in this case.

The issue is not the possibilities how to use or to use not. The issue is in the warnings in the tick-box-under-pressure terms of conditions. I am now quite sure you can not answer to that. And for your own sake i'd getter a better insight on what privacy means and how 'the one percent' compromises yours (and to make sure you don't take me for a fool: the one percent is being used as a short term for those in power without meaning that I'd know who these people are and without assuming a conspiracy. Just using a number that comes up out of economic research to point out the true thriving force behind your arguments)

The fact that you could go live in a desert and disapear from the map, does not change the fact that your privacy is being compromised. So let's take this thread back to the level where it was a few days ago. In Kuvo we are not the costumer from pioneer. In Kuvo we are nothing but users. And somehow we have to be users eventhough we payed for the pioneer workflow.

ShonkaiDJ 0 votes
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@SKDJ > Does the invoice for your purchase make mention of the manual? The cables? No, of course not, and nor does it itemize the software... which is not required to operate the unit. For the record, the software was never free before - it was only available to those who had purchased the hardware and unlocked the software using a serial number from within the box. Others who wanted to use rekordbox had to purchase a license. Pioneer decided that it was better to make the software available for all DJs to use in order to prepare their music for use with Pioneer hardware, even if they did not own it, so they made it "free." I put that in quotations because you and I both know there is a cost with software development and it is subsidized by the cost of hardware. If Pioneer didn't sell hardware and only made the software, you'd better believe that they'd be charging for it.

There is no "pressure" to tick the box. You can either check it or not. As I stated above, you CAN use the players without using rekordbox (or KUVO). If you read the terms of service and privacy policy (both of which are available online for the respective services; I am not linking directly to them here as there are several different documents depending on what country you live in). In those documents they quite plainly state what information is collected and how it is used. They're not trying to steal your identity.

If you browse the web AT ALL, which I know you do because you're here, you are amassing piles of data that is collected from you and your browsing habits on a daily basis. The info scraped without your knowledge (and quite likely without your consent) is far more telling than what Pioneer asks you to agree to share. By the way, you're here complaining about the privacy of KUVO yet a simple search dug up your accounts at the following sites:

  • Facebook

  • Twitter

  • Soundcloud

  • MixCloud

  • House-Mixes.com

  • Serato

I can guarantee that most of those sites are harvesting just as much if not more data than Pioneer. And your comparison of Pioneer DJ to JP Morgan Chase or Exxon by mentioning the 1% is absurd.

The provision of the KUVO service is to help connect clubbers, DJs, clubs, and the music. Once again, you're welcome to not use the KUVO or rekordbox services if you do not agree with the conditions set forth in the terms of service or privacy policies.

Pulse 0 votes
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Pulse, you are digging the hole deeper.  This issue is magnified due to the buy out of PioneerDJ.  There have been many examples of (despite stated intention) upper management turning around and selling off user data in one way or another.  Let's use Gracenote as just one.  If you want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes, check out https://www.privacyrights.org/social-networking-privacy-how-be-safe-secure-and-social  It is not about how you think the information will be used, it is about how some clever hacker (or marketing muckey-muck) invents a means to make a buck off of it at our expense in some unanticipated way.  And while we're being frank on this, you sound completely arrogant about this, Pulse.

Let's be clear:

  • Rekordbox greatly enhances the capability of the hardware.  It is a major selling point of the hardware.
  • Kuvo is neither interesting nor useful to the community.  In fact, the community sees it as a liability.
  • Rekordbox will not function without Kuvo registration.
  • It is logical to assume that the functionality of Rekordbox is critical to the usefulness of CDJ and XDJ product.
  • Rekordbox development costs are bundled into the cost of the hardware (albiet spread across the lines, but I digress).  So, yes, we are paying for it.  Just because PioneerDJ lumps it into a different accounting bin is beside the point.  If anything, the profit and loss of this accounting makes it stick out like a sore thumb in search of new revenue models.  Oh, so that's why Kuvo exists!
pope 0 votes
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@pope > I don't even have a shovel.

If anyone sold off your data from anything without you agreeing to it, whether hacker or marketing muckey-muck, you have rights protecting that data and you are welcome to take legal action.

I'm not being arrogant, you guys are being paranoid. Again, it's not like you have credit card data being stored here.

Pulse 0 votes
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*facepalms* all the tin foil thought train blocks you from seeing the concern. that's sad and not very good towards costumer care from someone who represents a company we are keeping alive and healthy through our choice to give money to it. i do believe in purchasing power and how my dollars help leverage and shape the world around and make conscientious choices around such ideology but it seems most people can not fathoms things along the lines of responsible consumerism.

thanks for the showing me it's pretty much pointless trying to be involved in this forum to have some sort of say in how the gear i feel we are beta testing is going to work in the end all be all which i do believe is the point to beta testing, to help further the productivity or performance of a thang. peace

fahlawfulls 0 votes
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@fahlawfulls > Reading your posts, my understanding is your concern is that Pioneer is going to make money off your information. Can I ask how that is any different from the cookies you allow to be set when you visit virtually any website on the internet?

Pulse 0 votes
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incorrect. my problem is being forced to "share information with third parties"

pioneer made money off our purchasing this gear.

fahlawfulls 0 votes
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You do understand who those 3rd parties are, right?

Third Party Partners: We may share your information with third party partners such as analytics and advertising partners to provide services such as analytics and online advertising. Our partners may collect information about your online activities over time and across different online services when you use our Services. We may share information with our partners for marketing purposes, including for their direct marketing purposes.

Basically, Pioneer will send your data to outside agencies to analyse that information and get a better understanding of who uses their products, when and where. The advertising partners are to provide targeted opportunities, not unlike you searching for shoes on Google and then seeing lots of ads for shoes on various websites... and most of that is only when you use the KUVO app itself, not rekordbox.

Pioneer's not making money from you sorting your music and exporting it to a device.

Pulse 0 votes
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Hi Pioneer. How do you assume that I let cookies get saved on my computer???

Maybe you could think about buying soundcloud or mixcloud and oblige us to also have accounts there if we want to use your hardware? Or even better: YouTube! Then you could share our performing face to third parties.

o_O

oderschiffer 0 votes
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@fahlawfulls > To address your concerns:

  • Your information is not sold to anyone, as previously outlined; targeted advertising is used for regional and topical advertising, nothing more.

  • We do care about our customers, which is why I'm here answering you even after you decided to personally insult me, and yet I don't feel I have said or done anything worthy of your finely crafted hatred.

  • Nobody has been kicked off the forums for asking about downgrading their firmware, we simply don't endorse or support downgrading.

  • If you have a problem with the firmware, we're happy to hear your concerns and direct them to the engineers. Not all problems can be fixed with an update, some have to be implemented in future hardware.

  • I strongly encourage you to write a letter to Pioneer to voice your displeasure with how I've treated you here. You can send it to the marketing director for Pioneer USA - David Arevalo. Simply put his names together with a dot and add @pioneerdj.com to the end. He'll be happy to read anything you have to say.

Pulse 0 votes
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Dear Pulse. you are not being insulted. Don't take things personally because that is not how it is meant as far as i can see. If it would be personal I personally would have to say a lot of good about you.

You are digging the hole deeper because you do not respond to our concerns but instead you twist our words. Or because in response to our comments on being active forum members and thus helpful users and not costumers, you tell us to start writing letters to Pioneer. Then what is the use of a forum and why did mention earlier that you will express our concerns to them? Is it very hard for David to login and read what is being written here?

I can't find where we describe being concerned about making money. But I don't see how Twitters business model has anything to do with pioneers business model. I would like to repeat that we pay for harware, pattents and efficient workflows being offered.

ShonkaiDJ 0 votes
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@SKDJ > Sorry, but when @fahlawfulls called me a "douche bag," I'm pretty certain that's mean as an insult, not an endorsement for his preference for a feminine hygiene product.

Your concerns have all been answered and addressed at some point of this conversation - where it breaks down is you (and others) aren't willing to accept the answer given or extend some amount of trust in what I'm relaying to you.

David's job is as marketing manager, not forum manager, not KUVO specialist, not legal expert, and my suggestion was for @fahlawfulls to take his complaints of my service to him - not for anyone else to write to him with their complaints about the KUVO legal terms.

It was also @fahlawfulls who brought up the issue of money -- "that to me says your selling off our personal information"

Yes, you pay for hardware. The KUVO software, however, is free for use by ANYONE. The advertising you may see (which I have yet to see a single instance of) would likely be a link to purchase a track a DJ is playing. I honestly don't know what beyond that you may encounter as the service is still young, but again, your information is not being sold to anyone and the information collected is minimal, used only to deliver advertising relevant to you (such as your geographic location so you get advertisers for your region of the world).

Pulse 0 votes
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Pulse, it is as simple as that:

-We don´t want ANY information collection.

-We don´t want to send our geographic location.

-We don´t want ANY personalized advertising.

-We don´t want to be marketing companions for tracks.

-We don´t want to help increase registered KUVO accounts and users by being obliged to register @ KUVO.

-Noone also doesn´t want to be obliged to create any other "free" internet accounts, be it facebook, twitter, YouTube etc. to use your hardware and rekordbox software, which is crystal clear, I guess. It is the same for us users with KUVO...

It´s as simple as that. Please tell us that you got this and forward it to Pioneer management. Thank you.

By the way: This conversation started in July 2014, so it should be of some concern.

oderschiffer 0 votes
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All of your comments and concerns are being passed along to the Pioneer staff.

I will take a moment to point out the irony that everyone here has registered for these forums to post in this thread. By doing so, you have basically agreed to a similar agreement as that of KUVO.

Pulse 0 votes
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No. There´s a difference: I signed in here voluntarily.

If I want to use rekordbox I´m forced to create a KUVO account.

Pioneer should put it´s imagination into good DJ gear and not into partnerships aiming to collect ANY DJ data.

oderschiffer 0 votes
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Thanks oderschiffer, that express exactly the essence of my concern:

"-We don´t want ANY information collection.

-We don´t want to send our geographic location.

-We don´t want ANY personalized advertising.

-We don´t want to be marketing companions for tracks.

-We don´t want to help increase registered KUVO accounts and users by being obliged to register @ KUVO.

-Noone also doesn´t want to be obliged to create any other "free" internet accounts, be it facebook, twitter, YouTube etc. to use your hardware and rekordbox software, which is crystal clear, I guess. It is the same for us users with KUVO...

"

Pioneer please give us back our privacy, we already bought some expensive gear and don't want any annoying marketing tracking, that's it.

John Hagen 0 votes
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For the record: nice that there is a checkbox added, but still: no choice. So. I only checked it because I had no choice. Signed under pressure. No other option to use my product in the way it was sold to me. I did not agree.

ShonkaiDJ 0 votes
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Somehow (I don't have the time to point out where it was) I remember that the gathered information by KUVO, would not be used commercially.
By now I'm sure our forum info, bugs from the players or computers quite clearly seems to be exactly what is used to support a € 126,orsomething license for a brand new software product comming from: a third party (KUVO is not Pioneer).
This is what they call a lie when I do such thing. And as I said: multinationals do not really care about truth or values in general. It's only the people within the companies that say they care.
I also mentioned the fact that it would be impossible for us to think of what would be the first violation of everything mentioned in this thread. I even bought Serato thinking it would be no use asking for this DJ application.
Last but not least: I'm trying to find a button on my very expensive hardware with which I can analize mycomplete library. Considering the fact that we do not 'need' rekordbox and the fact that un-analized tracks cannot play stable.

Please help me find another way of analyzing than playing every track in my library or your hardware has just become obsolete without the unsupported free-of-choice software from it's privacy violating Partner company.

I hope to be set for another three years at least with what we have now but it is become a more and more unstable monopoly I bought myself into unfortunately. Next I'm awaiting the moment where I realize I can never become a real DJ anymore if I didn't pay for Pioneer. In a very 'legal' way ofcourse. I would never be able to call the company 'criminal' would I?

ShonkaiDJ 0 votes
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O and Pulse. Though I have quite a few FB friens and such Online. Please stop making things personal and start thinking about relationships to keep. I am very happy with you as my support guy. Not as someone I would debate with.

ShonkaiDJ 0 votes
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