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Still having drifting problems!

Ok so after seeing one more topic posted on this forum vanish because it had too many persons talking about the same subject (topic was posted by Johnboy i think) I went desperate and decided to make a last try to erase any possible causes of the drifting on my cdjs (since so many people also say they just dont have it). It's really annoying having to fix the beatmatching all the time specially when I like to make long transitions and explore all my creativity while mixing. That not to mention I have to fix the pitch also everytime i set a 8 beat loop. All with quantized on tracks analized on normal mode and in a mypassport hd without any power saving turn on. 

Ok back to the desperate try: I bought a HD SSD 128Giga made by OCZ - Enyo model with USB 3 interface. Worked great the feedback is fast (really cant see much difference from mypassport feedback though) and it gives me a  plus that I dont have to worry about vibrations on some not so good club booths. BUT THE DRIFT IS STILL THERE! THE LOOP PROBLEM IS STILL THERE! So I really have to discard all the possibilities of this problem being caused by the data source! This is a reliable brand and its speed is even faster than the cjds are able to read. No sleep mode on. All files are .wav's bought from websites like traxsource and stompy. I don't use a single mp3 file! I CAN STILL ALSO SEE MY PITCH CHANGING BY ITSELF SOMETIMES AND ITS UNBELIVABLE IT DOES IT! I keep spending cash on trying to make this right and trying to erase any shadow of a doubt of this being something wrong on my end but IT'S NOT!  There is nothing else I can do but hoping Pioneer people will treat this matter seriously and won't delete this post cause, like I said before, Ive been even spending cash with more gear I wasnt supposed to be buying right now just to be sure there's nothing wrong with the data source!

This is really frustrating and I seriously expect some help instead of censorship from Pioneer moderators and engineer team.

Again, all my tracks are wav, I fix grid for all them, they are all previously analized in rekordbox in normal mode. I play with quantize on. All I am asking here is your comprehension and respect for a Pioneer customer! I bought this gear trusting on Pioneers perfection and this is just too much trouble to face day after day and after 5 MONTHS after the last firmware release having not a single word on what will or even if it will be done about all this!

Why the posts that mention the matter are just deleted?

The MT problem was also denied over and over once upon a time so like many others also were. It's time to realize we are here trying to contribute with the solutions for the cdjs behaviour and not to just say bad words about the product WE spent so much money on! I tested in many ways and again I put my small contribution here: it was NOT the hd cause it simply behaves the same with the SSD! Anything else I should check? Any ideas????

Stroboscope

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plus, if they do look into a fix for it, it may be years, i'm convinced they have 1 engineer that works on every product, software and hardware wise, and he works 2 days a week, lol....  The updates for Pioneer lately have been so slow and now that summer is here, they mainly probably run around doing shows all summer long so we are pretty screwed till fall most likely. Pio reps should at least let us know what the hell is going on. RB needs serious updates, DJM2000 update is past a year old, etc.... only time will tell, I hope all this waiting around is worth it, not like the last RB update which was unusable

BriChi 0 voti
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@ BriChi and Fuse

I've been testing tons of my files in rekordbox on dynamic mode to check how they would behave and what I am finding out is that most of them do present bpm variations in rekordbox. Believe me, almost the whole of them are brought by great producers and I really doubt the tracks bpm dance all over the place like that. Some tracks are pretty much still on bpm factor to my ears. Getting back to the one example i gave of a track of Sonny Fodera before on this thread: The track shows in rekordbox still on it's BPM factor in the beggining and end of when most we have is thump thumps. The spectrum of this track is pretty defined and you can easily distiguish the intro and outro parts (where rekordbox shows the bpm still) and visualize the middle one where the bpm starts dancing with the tune. Its the part of the track where more melody is inserted although its a serious 4x4 track. Its clear to me the software is unable to analize it correctly and that the more complex parts of tracks makes its "brain" go a lil bit crazy.

Conclusion: to me what has been said here makes more sense to me now. Rekordbox analisis is the connection to quantize feature. Brichi said he doesnt use it. I always keep it on cause I have a lot of work adjusting grids and setting up my loops, cues and hotcues to present a creative mix. But if the sofware sees a pretty still bpm track variating then there must be something wrong with it.

I will try to keep quantize feature off from now on and check what happens next. Maybe it is the reason for my problems... we will see. Shame is that it was supposed to be one of the cool features of those cdjs not?

Or maybe like somebody said here my decks have problems.... I really dont know and many times before i mentioned here that maybe something also improved with time inside those cdjs I dont know. Oh by the way: last gig I did try to use MT 2 times just to check how they would behave. Yes true they improved but hey! thats not a feature I would use cause to me it still causes problems on beatmatching... and Im not dreaming mates my ears are pretty sensitive and well trained on this thing.

Stroboscope 0 voti
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Also thx for everybody to keep the conversation on a high and technical level. Like I said before guys with a P on their logo used to deny MT problems by all means all ove this forum.. I really appreciate the help and interest on the matter.

Stroboscope 0 voti
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I'll be happy to keep trying and maybe even record some videos of my setup procedures and testing.  I'm out of town at the moment bill will have a chance to work some more on this on Thursday.

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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hey guys i am tried all out I'm nugged around since 2010 for this problem analyses in rekordbox normal mode pitch range 6% quantize on for the "loops who stays perfect in time " but thats not the reality  you allways have to pitch the quantize loops 0.02 % faster or slower when you set the loops and when you go out put the pitch back to the position they was before you set the quantize loop but these bug is since the new firmware update 4.10 one time i wrapped all my tracks in abelton i was think my tracks are drifting but then analyse in rekordbox (set the beatgrid perfect to the tracks) export them to a sd card and what happened  the cdj 2000 drift and drift  and drift and the cdj drifts not only in the quantize loops and in normal mode they are drifting the only we can do is use the ears to beatmatch and correct with pitch slider and the platter i also have an djm 2000 but i don t have time to use it (efx 1000 sidechain  filters etc.) because i have to spend time when i am mixing to hold the 2 tracks in time (i love make long transitions:-) )thats very said but thats reality or call it live mixing :-) would be cool when all this can be changed with an new firmware update :-)

 

jambapark 0 voti
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I have never used Loop before on a CDJ player.  Don't even really know how to use it.

I just saw your post and decided to test out the Loop feature.

 

I loaded 2 random tracks into Rekordbox LINK.  Both tracks analyzed Normal and beat grids adjusted.  Quantize = ON.  Both tracks are AIFF files purchased from Beatport.

I played 1 track at 123 BPM, 6% tempo range.  I beatmatched the 2nd track with headphones to the 1st track.

I played the 1st track just before the final breakdown.  Then I started the second track on the first beat of the last breakdown of 1st track, and began mixing.  When I got to near the end of 1st track, I hit the 4 bar loop button on that CDJ.  I was just guessing this was how to start a quick loop.  The track began looping, but stayed in time.  I left the loop running for several repeats, and it drifted very, very slightly.  Most people would probably not correct it, but I made a small manual correction on the jog wheel.  I would say that I ran the loop for about 45 seconds and had to make maybe 2 or 3 manual corrections in that time.  I did not adjust the pitch control slider.

I am using a Xone DB4 mixer, and I would say that I could easily have handled mixing, using the FX, and keeping this loop in sync without major problems.

 

From my perspective, I don't really see anything wrong here.  I don't think it is out-of-bounds for a DJ to have to make a minor amount of manual corrections to the jog wheel during a mix.  And it does not surprise me that a short loop on repeat for many cycles might not hold the tempo as perfectly as playing the track on its own.

One of these days when I get the time I will try to post a video of my testing.  I'm sorry I have not done this yet, but I own a retail store business and my work hours make it hard for me to find time to play with my CDJ-2000s.

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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This weekend I will have planty time to make new testings and also check the quantize feature. What will change and what will not on loops with it.

@ Fuse: I agree that the dj job is also knowing how to keep tracks locked and being able to correct that when needed. But if there is a failure with that loop features it wouldnt be a good thing just denying it or say it's ok we can handle it. I also have to correct the pitch on + or - 0.02% when using it. And on the other hand I use it a lot! I really think everything can be improved if theres a good will by pioneer engineers. I guess this kind of problem would be pretty easy to reproduce inside Pioneer labs.

About what I said considering the bpm analisis by rekordbox: I really think the software cant distiguish and determinate correctly the bpm under certain musical circumstances. Thats pretty easy to detect with tracks like the one I mentioned. Sonny Fodera's track is flat on bpm behaviour, produced with modern equipmnt and I doubt it would just freak out on its bpm matter like rekordbox shows up

Stroboscope 0 voti
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Ok sorry for getting back. Last days were really busy and I didn't want to make this new comment here untill I had the chance to test some stuff here several times.

I did try to play without the quantize feature on and tested the loops (including the auto 8 one) which was a completely disaster! When using the 4-beat loop button without quantize I had to correct the pitch in 0.08% in one of the mixes!!! I was so bugged with the behaviour of my cdjs that I decided to go further and make tests with a bunch of other tracks. I didn't want to think it was something related with the tracks themselfs.

So I made a test.with same track on both cdjs: My Life - Climbers (My Life EP). Track is .wav and I put one cdj with quantize off and the other one with quantize on. Did set tempo to zero through tempo reset. Tracks loaded on same spot and playing perfectly together. I hit the 4-beat loop at the same time and hold so they bring the 8 beat loop feature on screen. As fast as a bolt the loops begin to drift. Same thing happens with only 4 beats set. The problem doesnt happen if loops are set up through in and out.

This test proves that there is a huge problem with the auto loop feature and somehow it envolves also the quantize option. 

I will try to find time to put this on video and post on youtube but I think this is pretty easy for anybody to reproduce.

Will try to go through some other stuff and see what else i can find and hope this can help Pioneer engineers to fix the problem (hopefully). The auto loop button will be a great feature for people who, like me, uses lots of loops during the mix (when it starts working of course).

That also shows why me and some other guys here were pointing the need to fix the pitch when looping. 

Stroboscope 0 voti
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correction* "Ok sorry for taking too long to get back"

Stroboscope 0 voti
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but just so to say.. will do the same with any other if you follow the procedures i took for the test

Stroboscope 0 voti
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I have the same problem every time that I play on one club that have the cdj2000, I tried everything,  I use  rekordbox , and I buy all my tracks from beatport  and when I play with cdj 1000 mk3, I don´t have this problem with the same tracks, the pitch it´s variating for about .5 on the cdj 2000 with some tracks   I´ll hope you fix that problem with new firmware update.

Juan Zamanillo 0 voti
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@Stroboscope I don't want to be rude.. but the track you provided is horribly produced and the vocal also seems offbeat, is this the only track you are having trouble with or..? 

F!RMWAR3 0 voti
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@ Stroboscope   -   I just downloaded your track, and I made a video and a separate audio recording of my test with it.   Give me a little bit of time to upload the results.  I've never used YouTube before so I got to figure out how to post there.  ;)

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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Argh!!   I have a 13 minute video recorded on my iPhone of me mixing your track with another track.  I used loop several times, while mixing the tracks continuously for several minutes and only made like 2 or 3 jog wheel corrections the entire time.  Tried to upload to YouTube and it says my video has varying aspect ratio or something.  I'll have to figure out what to do to get it uploaded.

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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How about you upload a video stroboscope? Everyone is downloading all your files and no-one is seeing the problems you describe.

Phil 0 voti
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No, I recorded it in landscape for the entire duration of the recording.

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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I'm going to record it again with a different camara.  Stupid iPhone = meh.

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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OK, I am getting annoyed with YouTube.  I recorded my test a second time using my Canon camera instead of the iPhone.  The file is an AVI movie, which YouTube says it supports.  But it won't upload the video because it says it doesn't support the format.    WTF?

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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Alright, looks like I got the video posted.  Here is the link:  http://youtu.be/mhq7TWNsqYc

Quick overview.  I load Stroboscope's track into Rekordbox and align the beatgrid.  Then I play that track on CDJ 1, and play a randomly selected track from my collection on CDJ 2.  I beatmatched the tracks, then start playing CDJ 1.... and start CDJ 2 a few moments later.  I mix the two tracks together for a total of 5:30, and used the 4 beat loop feature a couple of times.  I deliberately did not touch the jog wheel or pitch sliders unless absolutely necessary to illustrate whether or not there is any "drift."

My results are in the video, and I have also made an audio-only recording of the music being mixed so you can confirm the beatmatching better.  That file can be found in my DropBox  here:  https://dl.dropbox.com/u/57699716/Stroboscope%20Loop%20Test%20%28Audio%20Only%29.mp3

 

Once again, I do not see any drift issues in my testing.  I am not sure what else to try at this point, but I am open to any suggestions.

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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Above test was done with:

Firmware 4.1

Rekordbox 1.5.3

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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I ran it through Ableton just to see how solid the beat was and it seemed pretty good, but then I did notice a tiny bit of variance and phasing in the track when running a warped version vs. the unwarped original.  Comparing either vs. a metronome was really hard to hear any wandering of the beat.

I haven't yet run it through to rekordbox and onto the CDJs but from what others are saying, I may not see an error either, but will test it.

Pulse 0 voti
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Tonight I will be posting a video to show you what happens pulse. The drifting is really easy to notice and happens really fast. I tested with some other tracks (always a pair of same one loaded on both cdjs) and it happens the same way.

It wouldnt be possible to be the tracks fault since its the very same loaded at the very same spot looped at the very same time... right?

I will post the link for the video as soon as I have it done.

Stroboscope 0 voti
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My assessment at this point remains the same.  I can see no "drifting" being caused by the CDJ-2000 in direct playback or with the 4-beat loop feature engaged.  The only explanations which logically arise are:

1.  Pilot error.  Perhaps the users having problems are not adjusting the beat grids correctly in Rekordbox?  If the grids are not aligned correctly then I can understand why a loop might not align well.  This would also be the only explanation for my a loop would instantly go off-beat when engaged.

2.  Poorly produced tracks.  If there is a track with poor production quality and/or unstable master tempo then this would obviously cause issues which no DJ can overcome.  Unfortunately, while these things should not be happening in theory, it is a fact that most of the music we listen to these days is created by amateurs.  I have heard many tracks where the kicks and hi-hats were improperly aligned to where the track playing alone actually sounds like 2 tracks being mixed out-of-sync.  Very annoying, and it shouldn't happen in the age of computerized music, but it still does happen.

 

Bottom line though....  my video shows 2 different tracks mixing for 5 and a half minutes, with loop turned on/off a couple of times, and with only 1 manual correction needed.  As much as I love to ride long mixes, I think it is reasonable for a DJ to expect to make minor corrections at some point during a 5.5 minute mix.  Nothing I have seen points to the equipment as the issue.

I am happy to continue testing, of course.

Fuse Promote 0 voti
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@ firmwar3 : did post it immediatelly after 1st test but its happening with anyone i play and follow the same test described.

@ phil909 : will post it today bro. Im not making all this stuff up

I guess i found a way to record it with the audio not going in through my camera but straight from audio in so everybody will be able to notice what happens.

Like I always said before... its weird things happening with some and not with others... hardware difference maybe????? its what I always asked to myself...

will be back with the video folks!

Stroboscope 0 voti
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