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[CLOSED] Lack of CDJ support

Pioneer’s support for the CDJ 2000 Nexus is not fit for purpose.

There, I said it.

There is currently a massive gulf between the requirements of DJs using the supposed flagship CDJs and the ability of the support and development teams to deliver. It’s unacceptable and it needs to be addressed urgently.

I can understand products shipping with flawed firmware. That’s not to say that the CDJ-2000 Nexus shipped in an acceptable state – the product clearly wasn’t adequately tested before it was put on sale, but software is complex, inevitably has bugs and takes time to fix. Eventually we got firmware 1.06 which seemed to make the players stable.

The big problem is with the on-going support we’ve had since version 1.10 was released. Firmware has been shipping with disruptive and/or showstopper bugs, releases have been taking weeks (I believe six weeks and counting since some of the issues in 1.11 were flagged up) with next to no communication from Pioneer. This isn’t acceptable.

These are players that are sold on the basis that they will perform flawlessly for several performances per week. That is their entire purpose. If they can’t fulfil that purpose then the products are useless to the DJs and venues that purchase them.

Lets take a conservative example, and assume that a pair of CDJs is only being used on weekends. The CDJs are running firmware version 1.06, and a new firmware version has been released that fixes one or two bugs that haven’t negatively affected anyone yet, but could potentially cause a problem down the line.

As a systems administrator in my day job, I understand the risk of software updates causing problems, so I’m not going to update them five minutes before a gig – I’m going to wait until after the weekend so that I have some time to test the new firmware, and make sure the players are stable before I risk using them in front of an audience. This leaves me with 4-5 days to resolve any problems before I have to use them again.

Let’s say the new firmware introduces some new, highly disruptive bug. I now have a broken player, and need a resolution within 4-5 days. In the case of busier venues, that period might not be so forgiving – it might be more like 24-48 hours. Either way, I need a working firmware version, whether it’s a new version, or the ability to revert back to an old firmware (which worked well enough) within that 4-5 day period, otherwise I’m left with a product that is no longer fit for purpose.

Pioneer seem to think that keeping people waiting for well over a month with a product that they can no longer use is acceptable. Perhaps this works for the consumer market, but you’re dealing with professionals with deadlines for having working players. You cannot give us the brush off like this. “Wait for the new firmware to fix what we broke” isn’t an acceptable answer when you need the players back in a working state tomorrow. We need solutions inside 48 hours, not two months from now.

Pioneer also seems to have an obsession with preventing firmware downgrades. I can understand this up to a point, as newer firmware fixes known bugs in the players, but this simply doesn’t work in the real world. Sometimes the bug fix has negligible benefit, and the damage done by a dodgy update is both real and massively disruptive. In these cases, if Pioneer can’t ship an actual fix inside a 48-hour window, we really need a way to revert back to a working firmware version. A working (but flawed) firmware version is always preferable to a firmware version which breaks a critical feature of the player.

The world has changed. CDJ firmware is more complicated than it once was. Bug counts are higher. DJs and venues can no longer afford to update their players without some sort of back out plan when something goes wrong. “Update and pray” is not an acceptable solution in this market, and if Pioneer can’t get their head around this then Pioneer has no place in this market any more.

You’re going to start losing customers. The market is already shifting towards controllers in many places anyway, so my advice to Pioneer is not to throw away the high end market by messing up here. Big names have started to notice the problems with the CDJ 2000 Nexus, and these issues have been noted by both DJs and venues. If your products don’t meet the requirements of the DJs, they’re going to start using other products. Do something about it before its too late.

As for me, I’ve been a Pioneer user for years. I’ve got issues with the CDJ line (involving navigation, file formats, etc.) that I’ve discussed elsewhere, but ultimately I use CDJs because when it comes to playback, I like the way they feel and the way in which they perform. That’s all irrelevant if the players don’t work properly due to a poor firmware release.

I’m beginning to regret my Nexus purchase. If a relatively stable firmware release comes along, I’m updating to it and staying with it – no more risks. The Nexus players will also be my last Pioneer purchase unless Pioneer starts taking their support more seriously. You’ve got some interesting products these days – the XDJ-R1 looks like a great device, for example – but all of that is meaningless if you can’t get the software right. At least when I was using a laptop and controller, if a software update broke something I could restore the machine to full working order in less than a day.

MouseAT

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I couldn't agree with this more, well said.

I am a big Pioneer fan and have stayed calm for the most part because i do like the features of the Nexus, but when I can't use these features because of bugs, Then it's a big waste of time and money I put into them.

Some things I have said for a while still stand true

  1. Pioneer NEEDS to beta test their FW before it's released, Get a team together that are willing to take the risk and let them test beta's for some hours and report bugs, I know I would be willing to do this but they haven't asked. 

  2. I bet if the engineers were using the decks live the FW updates would be pouring out weekly and they would be 100% by now

  3. Get an engineer team dedicated to your flagship line, It seems theres a very small team and they work on 1 or 2 projects at a time. Perfect example is the new R1, updates have been very minimal on all products because all their time was dumped into a bedroom dj controller while the pro gear sits buggy still. the RB app hasnt been updated in forever why?,, Because they were working on Remotebox which blows away the RB app, thanks for that. Then they come out with a tiny update for the Nexus which seemed like it was just to "hold us over" so we cant complain about lengths between updates. I mean come on, It really took you guys 2 months to come up with an update that ONLY fixes a freeze that "might" occur while in a tag list. If that's really the case and it took 2 months to fix this, then something is not right here. And I never heard anyone complain about this bug yet it gets it's own time consumed on it and an update, meanwhile SO MANY more functions are buggy and we are still waiting for a fix.

  4. kinda similar to 3 but why not give some gear to testers to make Pioneers FW more stable, It drives me absolutely CRAZY when I see a friend of mine getting sent, now up to, 8 Nexus decks, djm2000, djm2000 nexus, rmx1000, djm900 for FREE just because he tours and does some shows with them to show off, If you are able to provide this gear for people just to show off, Doesn't it make sense to send 2 players to a guy like me for free to hammer away on the FW so by the time it is released you are not embarrassed at the amount of issues it has? Stop giving gear away for free to show off when it's buggy gear that can be isolated and fixed if you gave me gear to test on. And i am not saying this for my benefit, i don't care who you use to beta test, it's the idea that needs to happen. MANY people on this forum will agree that I pick and find bugs faster then a lot of people and would be great as a tester being I use these decks (or try to because of the bugs) to their full potential and DJ a lot on them so i find issues fast

  5. there needs to be a way to go back, or get a team that is waiting to fix a new issue fast, if you put out a new FW version, bugs are usually reported pretty quickly within a day r so, the team should not have moved onto the next thing and ignore the Nexus, wait a little bit to see if you need to fix any issues quickly and then move onto the next project, or again, get more engineers in there!

6. MouseAT is 100% right about dj's opinions on these decks, in my opinion for the bid dj's, these decks are a huge fail and maybe that's why time is not dddivcated to them anymore because the dj's don't even want them when they perform. One of the accounts we have is a club that also does private events so when i work there which is a couple of times a month I work with the head sound/lighting guy who is also a friend of mine and he tours with guys like Avicci, Morillo and so on, I bring my Nexus' there each time I play because they still have 1000's (club owner wont spend money on 2000's) and each time we work together he always is shocked I still use them, I asked why and he says it's amazing the amount of riders his company gets that say "DJM-900 and 2 CDJ 2000 (NOT NEXUS DECKS), So i said I totally know why but why are THEY saying they don't want them and their response is "All we hear are bad things about them and they freeze a lot and are very buggy, We are not taking the chance", That's really sad and makes Pioneer look like crap. so the part that pisses me off is it seems like Pioneer knows this, may be giving up a little to work on the next deck to have Laidback Luke show off so it brings them back up to par and they are forgetting about the littler dj's like us that already purchased them and are trying to use them professionally. 

The last thing that really kinda pissed me off a little was I walked in to do an hour set for a friend of mine at a gig friday night, He has the 2000MK1 with even older FW, he never updates because he uses serato and they work fine, so he feels no need to update, Even with the old 2000 fw they performed 100 times better then the Nexus decks, the menus were lightning fast, never slowed down on me, the hot cues always loaded smooth without freezing the deck up for 20 seconds, they were a pleasure to work on and now I see why the big guys just want the mk1 and not the Nexus. If I didnt love the scrolling wave, auto load of hot cues and the active loop so much, I would go back to the MK1 but I love those 3 features enough to deal right now. Now if they could just get the iPad app up to par and have it do what it can do for a bedroom dj controller at $800 vs what we spend on a setup, up near $6000, that would be great :)

BriChi 0 voti
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Well said by both of you... I think Pioneer see's that the future of djing is and will be controllers and are trying to make there mark in the controller portion of the dj market, and take some away from Numark and Native Instruments.. I hate to say, although I have said it in the past... CDJ's as nice as they are are old and wil be out dated soon... This is because IMO Pioneer and the quick turnover from cdj to cdj and what is considered the standard... They themselves have made and are making the CDJ not important anymore... Buy over pricing them. Them not working correctly.. etc. A good dj can easily rock a club with a ANY controller... And a lot of dj's/producers are using tracktor with launch pads and N.I. controllers.. I knew this day would come... Just didn't thinks so soon... Thought we had a few more years to go... The CDJ Nexus and RB are probably not High on the priority list with Pioneer right now... With the new controller, and updated DDJ serato version, seems focus is elsewhere..... For right now anyway.

DJ Pete 0 voti
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very true, and if they would stop putting file amount limits on their controllers, i would debate getting one.

BriChi 0 voti
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Fully agree, we must be able to return to a previous firmware version.

For my part, version 1.06 was the best so far.

This ability to go back is really important.

rakksy 0 voti
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“Update and pray” is not an acceptable solution in this market, and if Pioneer can’t get their head around this then Pioneer has no place in this market any more.

You’re going to start losing customers. The market is already shifting towards controllers in many places anyway, so my advice to Pioneer is not to throw away the high end market by messing up here.

^^^ The Above MUST be passed up the chain of command - since September WORKING DJs have posted numerous comments like the above

 

The Remotebox release seems to have brought things to a head. Pioneer - LISTEN CAREFULLY ... Nexus customer's patients have ran out. No one has time, effort or energy to keep complaining, HOPING things might improve. 

 

The time for action is NOW - Your meant to be Number one, currently though - You have a "Flag Ship Failure" on your hands, weather you can shift this image ... time will tell - so far the message is clear from a professional point of view. Avoid the Nexus, stick with a CDJ2000 MK1, if you want a hassle free gig.

DJccccc 0 voti
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Well said, all of you..
We'll see how 'fast' pioneer will respond with a one liner comment.
My guess is when this topic goes over 80 reply's or by thursday.

RamonCC 0 voti
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Well said! A good post that pinpoints a lot of things gone wrong and are still being handled wrong by Pio. 

 

Hopefully Pio reads this and really take some actions this time.

Taang 0 voti
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Where are you, guys from Pio???? What can you say????

Alex Tyugaev 0 voti
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I just wanted to clarify a little here. This isn't about fixing the Nexus. This is about fixing broken processes. This isn't make or break time for the Nexus - it's make or break time for the entirety of Pioneer's DJ line. If they release a "fixed" firmware version today, it's useless if the processes stay the same and another firmware version breaks the players for two months later in the year. It's useless as you'll still get other products shipping in the same broken state that the Nexus did.

Pioneer's processed clearly worked OK in the days of the CDJ-1000, when the products were still relatively simple and the updates rarely had any significant side effects (although that wasn't always the case - CDJ-800 MK2 master tempo anyone?). The "new breed" players changed the game, and require a different approach. They're essentially high availability computer devices now, and should be treated as such. Those of us who work in the IT field already know this. Pioneer are still stuck in the mind set of "simple consumer electronics device".

The next time I see my local retailer, I'll be having a word about how I'm unhappy with the state of the Nexus and the support it's receiving, and ask him to pass the word up the chain through Pioneer's UK sales representatives. If you've got links to Pioneer's DJ teams outside of the forum, or if you're on first name terms with someone at your local authorized Pioneer distributor, I'd suggest that you consider doing the same. This message is an important one, and it needs to get heard by the people with the authority to make decisions and changes.

MouseAT 0 voti
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Amen! i have already point this out and the topic was closed... I have a Xone db4 as well. And when i updated there driversoftwere for mac tha midi was fuckt up.. 1 email to the A&H support and i got a new firmwere within 48 hours. for a bete test.. and it works.. with Pio there is silence... I run a rental firm and have 4 nexus players and 4 mk1´s.. all my nexus is useless with this firmwear and i am loosing money for every week that i cant rent them out. im so f*** angry over this!!!!

Daniel wennström 0 voti
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I Couldn't agree more with everything that's already been mentioned - it's time for the powers that be in pioneer to wake up and smell the coffee...

As said above, it's more worryingly a broken processes issue than just just a few nexus bugs.

While pioneer may have been able to deflect issues and get on with things in the past, they can't now as other competition is too great. They need to get a grip on this before they become an 'also ran' instead of the industry standard.

Cheaply built/constructed hardware and poor firmware will come back to haunt them...

You have people who know what they are talking about on the forum, who flag up bugs/issues and know how to rigorously test firmware.

Why wouldn't you use them to help save your reputation. Your current firmware/software testing is a joke...

cdjbasile 0 voti
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Pioneer should seriously look at creating a firmware or a downgrade method to the most stable recent firmware (in the meantime) 1.06 I think it was, before the master/slave switching broke

cdjbasile 0 voti
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I should also add that Pioneer's current handling of the situation is bordering on negligent. That's not a good situation to be in, and that's not a word I use lightly. Again, it's not about bugs that have always been there - it's about new ones being introduced, and having no way to undo the damage for weeks on end.

MouseAT 0 voti
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The crazy thing is,here you got the other company not sure if I could say there name. But it start with a (D) they listen to there customers and they give firmwares on a regular. And both there table tops are pretty ok. Why can't pioneer company or engineers do the same?

Steven V 0 voti
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This thread is great, so many good points guys, Too bad Pioneer probably won't change anything. I have been offering to test for them since the CDJ2000MK1 was released and I was picking up issues left and right. Needless to say, i am still not beta testing their players. If they dedicated 1 or 2 guys to the Nexus for a month with a couple of good testers, they could bang this out in no time. FW does not take this long, months at a time, to update, it's because they move on to the next player and get back around to the Nexus when they are done. With the other companies they bang out FW updates within a week or 2 and sometimes like with A&H, days. 

BriChi 0 voti
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It's time for pioneer to stop basking in the glory of the cdj 1000 and djm 800 success, (that made them the industry standard) and start dealing with the difficult and challenging issues of the current 'industry standard' product.

Dear knows where they'd be without the help of some off this forum...

Also Gavin if your reading. I'm having major issues with the 2nd cdj I've had to return -

Who can I discuss this with? As a repair (on a month old deck) is taking ages as a part is out of stock, and I've only just been notified nearly a month on..

cdjbasile 0 voti
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and, I hope something is being done with the people that work on these decks, if they are not being reprimanded for these issues for the last 4 years, Then things will never change. I know in the I.T. field I work in, If these people I work for constantly complained about  work i did every time I touched their PC, I would be out of a job for a better guy to take my place

BriChi 0 voti
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I rang the UK hotline on 0330 123 1240, after seeing REMOTEBOX ... and all the features added to that controller ... FEATURES THAT WERE PROMISED THAT THE NEXUS WOULD DO ... BY PIONEER AT BPM 2013 in the UK.

 

I was disgusted ... and felt so aggrieved that I thought something had to be done.

 

The chap who answered my call was completely obvious to the Issues Working CDJ Nexus users have been reporting, he knew nothing of the loosing file issue - that was something I pulled Pioneer reps up at BCM, that was OCT 2012

 

MORE THAN 6 MONTHS !!! 

No movement what so every, now on top with the lack of searching from IPad (to HD like the Aero as Bri has repeated asked for like my self - as I was sold these decks on the bases I could search a HD on my IPad like the Aero)

 

The terrible bugs shown in numerous horror videos with FW 1.11.

 

My only conclusion is that Pioneer DJ arm is in a shambolic state, your flag ship customers are in full open revolt ... This is now the time for action ... not passing us off as more complaining customers that will just get washed down the forum posts.

 

YOUR TIME IS NOW PIONEER ... YOU HAVE TO GET THIS SORTED.

 

Scores ... of $6000 or £3000 paying Nexus customers are is revolt. May this not be the moment when you loose your DJ number one technical lead. DO something to show us that you are listening ... simply saying 2this is been passed the engineers IS NOT ACCEPTABLE AND IS NOT ENOUGH ANYMORE .

 

 

DJccccc 0 voti
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My response came from a pioneer tech (I dont want to put his name here as is a public forum and data protection issues etc) - ill now be chasing this up tomorrow

This is the numbers on the bottom of the email ...

Tel: 0330 123 1240 / 0870 600 1539

DJccccc 0 voti
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Fact is there's only Gavin who supports this forum these days and that is only once a week it seems - I've no beef with Gavin I might say as this is with Pioneer directly but gone are the days of Pulse, Djjay and other all chiming in. 

Not good !

Paulm72 0 voti
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Pulse is still around I think, but he's not here as often as he used to be.

I've no beef with Pulse or Gavin either. They get the issues, so I've no complaints about their attitude or conduct, other than maybe being a little over zealous with the thread close button sometimes. The problem is that our comments either aren't reaching the ears of the people with the authority to do something about the problems, or said people with authority are being ignored.

I've spoke to my retailer this afternoon, and asked him to relay the information to his Pioneer rep the next time he talks to them. I think I'm going to put together an old fashioned snail mail letter this evening, and send it directly to Pioneer UK. It's harder for people to ignore something in writing than it is a forum post or an email.

MouseAT 0 voti
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I've also raised issues with the shop ( through no fault of their own) that sold me the 3 units. 2 of which that have the faulty Ethernet port (from out of the box) and the other a fuse issue.

I've been assured that after tracking the individual down that the head of service within pioneer uk will be in touch tomorrow...

I will be directing him towards this thread.

cdjbasile 0 voti
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To me the most horrifying discovery in all of this was learning that the mods are VOLUNTEERS.  No discredit to Gavin, Pulse, etc (kudos to you guys for helping us out when you can) but that is a testament to the lack of resources Pio has allocated to support the CDJ.  My experience with the US hotline has been underwhelming to say the least (generally clueless, referring me to the forums and rushing me off the phone).  Another gripe that hasn't been mentioned is the consequence of venues not stocking the Nexus - it's getting old to have to lug decks to every gig and cause a hassle with sound techs to set up.  Part of paying this price tag was buying into "club standard" gear and "only needing to show up with my USB stick" as all the Pio marketing collateral so eloquently describes.  This has become no different than showing up to the club with a controller.  They have failed to deliver a new club standard and should recognize that.  Instead of dishing free units to touring DJs, they should make an effort to start distributing promotional Nexus players to key venues once all this firmware issue is sorted.  They need to have demonstrated success in their players before releasing a mk2 - it's not like dropping support of this player and calling it a loss is an option; if they drop a new player before getting a firm footing with the Nexus, it's guaranteed no venue will have faith enough to invest in it.     

Fox 0 voti
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I always had mad respect for Gavin,pulse and jay! I think they do what they have to do to make it happen. Even doe they get chewed up from time to time. But I feel that they don't get good support from the company which looks really bad on them. If this decks wasn't so over price then I think people would be patient when firmware will come. But when you playing $2000 for each decks u won't top of the line decks. Company really needs to stop B.S and get on the ball with it!

Steven V 0 voti
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pioneer just released new djjm 2000 nexus firmware

,that might be a clue that theres a cdj 2000 nexus firmware on the way

 or it means they are onto the next project, hopefully they are looking at the Nexus now and we see an update within 2 months

BriChi 0 voti
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@TURFER: You've missed the point. Yes, there will eventually be an update, over six weeks after working DJs needed a solution. Yes, it may fix the problem. It may also make the problem worse, or introduce a new showstopper bug into the players. Pioneer do not have a good track record right now.

What's more, an improved firmware doesn't do anything to prevent these problems from happening again unless improvements are made to the update process. What if another showstopper bug appears on the 2000 Nexus six months down the line? What if they introduce a show stopping lock-up into the firmware for people's beloved CDJ 2000 MK1s? What about the DJM-900? What about the ruined first dance at a wedding because an XDJ-R1 falls foul of some critical yet unnoticed regression a couple of firmware updates down the line.

I'm not a hardware engineer or an embedded systems developer, but I do have software development experience. These players are not going to be easy to write code for. They have to do several tasks concurrently, and in real time. As a software developer, "concurrency" and "real time" both set alarm bells ringing. Careful testing is required, and it's clear that Pioneer's in house testing is not up to scratch. Since the Nexus was released, they've been shown up time and time again by the efforts of the wider community, and BriChi in particular.

On top of that, updates to critical infrastructure always require careful management. They need planning, a pre-arranged time in which to perform the update and test it has been successful, and most importantly a contingency plan to get things back to a known good state should the update create problems. This isn't new - it's largely a solved problem in the system administration field. Simple change control. It's not hard.

It's ironic - if a software/driver/OS update causes problems on one of my gig laptops then it's really not a big deal. I can wipe the machine, re-install the OS, revert back to an older version of the software and re-copy my entire music library on to the machine in the space of an afternoon. It's annoying, but not a big deal. When I'm dealing with the "reliability of hardware", the total recovery time is measured in months. When I do mobile gigs, I take my laptop, not the CDJs.

MouseAT 0 voti
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Regarding not buying Pioneer products in the future - that's what I'm getting at. That doesn't benefit anyone though. As DJs, we lose what has been and potentially still could be one of the best product lines in the industry. Pioneer has even more to lose if their cash cow falls out of favour and their position of being the supposed "club standard" starts to fail.

As for being grateful, no. I paid for the players, I expect them to work, and I expect more than the level of incompetence we've seen from Pioneer to date. As for getting money back, here in the UK there's the sale of goods act, which is particularly useful if you're like me and bought the CDJs as a consumer, rather than for use in the course of a business. (Yes I may use the players on the road in the future, but for now, they're part of my home "play" rig).

Anyway, enough waffling from me. I've a letter to send either tonight or tomorrow, and then I'm done with the issue. Pioneer get one warning from me (albeit via. multiple channels). This was it. If they want to keep digging a deeper grave for their DJ division, hey, it's their funeral.

MouseAT 0 voti
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First off, I would just like to point out that neither Pulse, Jay, Foster or myself take any of your criticisms personally - our job is to best represent you, our users, to Pioneer.

I have read each and every one of your contributions here and I fully understand your frustrations. I am not, in any way, trying to fluff around the subject here nor deliver a quick one-line-fits-all response so I will take the time to address each of your concerns as best I can.

@MouseAT > We are working on improving communications to speed things up. What I can say is that when we say "your suggestions / concerns / ideas have been forwarded to the engineering team" they really have been. Our job here is to troubleshoot and help you before we escalate a ticket to the attention of the engineers. As you'll no doubt have seen throughout the forums, if we (collectively) don't think an idea is worth implementing we won't forward it. I'm sorry to hear you are regretting your purchase - I understand we've quite a bit to do to win you back but I am confidant that we will do so.

@Pete > The engineers that work on the controllers are entirely different to the engineers that work on the CDJs - different products, different teams.

@BriChi > I don't believe the files limits are intentional but within the limits of the code / database / whatever. I'm not experienced enough to discuss this particular issue but we will certainly keep pushing for increased limits.

@Turfer > It is!

@rakksy > Understood - this has been done before. Once the new firmware is released, the older version is removed from the servers as it is deemed no longer necessary (as a new version has become available). We're working to resolve issues faster or provide an alternative.

@DJccccc > Understood.

@RamonCC > No one liner - we're here to help and respond as best we can. And judging by your estimate, I'm three days ahead of schedule! ;)

@Taang > Fixes were being actioned long before this thread.

@Daniel > Apologies for your frustrations, fixes are on the way.

@cdjbasile > Thanks for your criticisms. If you returned it to a shop, I would try asking them for loaner gear in the meantime.

@Paulm72 > I fully understand that, there quite a bit of work on the back-end in terms of closing out tickets etc so I'll try to make my presence felt more prominent on the front end.

@Steven > We are the public face of the company on here so its to be expected. We don't take it personally - we try to build a relationship with our users, resolve their issues and roll forward all happy-smiley.

Again, to all of you (that includes those that haven't commented in this thread but are reading) I sincerely apologise for the issues that you may have encountered.

I assure you that these issues were being addressed from the moment they were raised.

As you know, we do not give precise timelines for updates but I can tell you that there will be a firmware update very soon (by mid June) to rectify these issues.

Gavin 0 voti
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